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  • Eskaver
    Eskaver closed this thread because:
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    00:21, January 7, 2017

    (posting this here so it doesn't clog up the other thread)

    Emma was 16 when she was with Neal.

    Henry's birthday cannot be in August because he was already 10 in October (on Emma's birthday) then in when he meets Neal (mid season 2) he was 11. Season 1 ends within a week or two of Valentine's Day and (I can't be certain as I haven't watched season 2 in a long while) lasts roughly a month, at most. So 2x14 had to have taken place around mid-late March, possibly early April at a real stretch, in 2012.

    So he turned 11 March/April 2012, so was born March/April 2001. Emma would be 18 the following October. The working backwards, he was conceived in June/July 2000 (which makes sense as A&E said Emma and Neal were together "for a summer". She was 16, 17 that October.

    Now on to the relationship. Nevermind the legalities for a second, there is a huge maturity difference between 16 and 23. He was an adult and she was a child (a homeless, love starved, slightly naive child at that). Frankly I find the idea of a man his twenties manipulating a child into a date, drinking with her and then planning to move in with and start a life with her quite repulsive (seriously watching that fake pregnancy scene and the motel scene with Emma's real age in mind..... ugh). She was not old or mature enough to either consent to sex (and I doubt she'd have ever had much sex ed to begin with given that she ran away from Ingrid when she was 13/14 and had likely been homeless all that time) or start a home and new life with him.

    [think this says it all really]

    In Oregon, where they were, the age of consent is 18. So it was illegal

      Preparing Editor Spell
    • I'd question using an anti-Swanfire blog as a decent source as it's doesn't take into account several things.

      1. As you say, Henry's birthday is sort of questionable. He was ten in 2011, so he was born in 2001. That's how I'm sure the writers took it. Nine months back from August is clearly Nov/December, but you say they mentioned a summer. I don't know if we really can use Henry since he must be rounding up his age or something to match Jared's age.

      If we go with Henry being conceived in late 2000, then Emma was 17. Age of consent depends on the state and it's 16 to 18 generally. Given that Emma has no parents or guardians that we know of, I'm okay with the fact that she's 17 and in a relationship. Noone knows how old Neal was. The poster said 1977 (?), but Baelfire was 14 when he returned to LWM. Let's say early 20s and Emma's late teens. Legality is pretty much null and void, maturity is questionable (Neal is really 100+ years old, so I'd handwipe that away). 

      2. There's a twisted perception that Neal was a manipulative jerk that blackmailed and controlled Emma. That is clearly not true. Most of what you put is baseless. Because:

      A. How do we know Neal knew her age?

      B. What is FTL's age of consent and marriage? I'm pretty sure given that he's from there, things were different.

      C. Where do you see that Emma was unhappy and unwilling to participate in the relationship?

      Emma was clearly happy with the relationship and Neal was too. He clearly loved her and highly valued her, at least. Emma doesn't recount on any bad memories besides the set-up at the end. Neal never tricked her into a date. It was casual conversation that I'm sure if Emma wanted, she could have not entertained that notion (because she was stealing his "stolen" car).

      Back to the blog for a moment, they clearly use a photo of MRJ who was 34/35 and Abby Ross who was pretty much 16.

      TL;DR: Emma was probably 17. Blog uses photo manip of MRJ (age 35) and Abby Ross (age 16), which proves that age 35 and age 16 is a big gap, but irrelevant otherwise.

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    • 1. As you say, Henry's birthday is sort of questionable. He was ten in 2011, so he was born in 2001. That's how I'm sure the writers took it. Nine months back from August is clearly Nov/December, but you say they mentioned a summer. I don't know if we really can use Henry since he must be rounding up his age or something to match Jared's age.

      Did you read any of what I wrote? Henry was 11 by mid season 2, which was March/April 2012. That is canon. So he must have turned 11 by then since he was 10 in October 2011. Simple maths, Henry was conceived in summer 2000.

      If we go with Henry being conceived in late 2000, then Emma was 17. Age of consent depends on the state and it's 16 to 18 generally. Given that Emma has no parents or guardians that we know of, I'm okay with the fact that she's 17 and in a relationship. Noone knows how old Neal was. Let's say early 20s and Emma's late teens. Legality is pretty much null and void, maturity is questionable (Neal is really 100+ years old, so I'd handwipe that away). 

      We do have evidence of Neal's age; the wanted poster which puts his birth year at 1977. And even if we didn't, he came to the LWM when he was 14/15 (biologically) and then lost his English accent (which he'd had for years) and acquired and never lost an American one, learned 21st century shoplifting techniques, learned how to hotwire and drive a car (something he had never seen before in his life), was able to create a whole new identity (including a fake ID),  knew how to trick police effortlessly, fence stoen goods, work in a high end jewellery store (including passing background checks since I doubt they gave those kinds of jobs to teenagers) a few years before meeting Emma. Frankly, 8 years is a minimal amount of time to achieve all that and be able to pull it off 247 and fool everyone around you.

      It's not necessarily that she was in a relationship, it's that she was 16 and in a relationship with an adult.

      2. There's a twisted perception that Neal was a manipulative jerk that blackmailed and controlled Emma. That is clearly not true. Most of what you put is baseless. Because:

      From when they first met, Neal tried to manipulate her into a date when she was (rightfully) cautious of him.

      N: Neal Cassidy

      E: I'm not telling you my name

      N: I don't need it to have you arrested when the robbery is in progress

      He used the threat of calling the police to get her name out of her (which she didn't want to tell him). And then after she said she wasn't drinking with him, he asked again. 

      A. How do we know Neal knew her age? Seriously? The "but maybe he didn't know she was underage" excuse? That's what you're going for? I would be surprised if Emma didn't tell him on the first date, pretty standard first date question, really.

      B. What is FTL's age of consent and marriage? I'm pretty sure given that he's from there, things were different. Where is the evidence? None. You are basing it on a headcanon. And all the FTL relationships we've seen are two adults.

      C. Where do you see that Emma was unhappy and unwilling to participate in the relationship? When she first met him and was afraid of him being a pervert.

      D. Where do you see Neal purposefully manipulating Emma for sexual gratification? When he decides to enter a relationship with and sleep with a teenage girl.

      Emma was clearly happy with the relationship and Neal was too. He clearly loved her and highly valued her, at least. Emma doesn't recount on any bad memories besides the set-up at the end. Neal never tricked her into a date. It was casual conversation that I'm sure if Emma wanted, she could have not entertained that notion (because she was stealing his "stolen" car).

      If he "highly valued" her he wouldn't have let her go. She was "happy" being sexually abused by a man much older than her. I wouldn't even say "very happy" as we haven't seen enough of their past relationship (in the present he clearly didn't).

      The problem here is you are neglecting the power imbalance. Emma was an impressionable, lonely, love starved teeanger, not an adult. She was quite naive and Neal was most likely her first boyfriend. Neal was an experienced adult.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • The writers of the show have never been very good with math, and yeah, there are quite a few holes in the show's timeline (I've pointed out all of them - I think - on my own timeline here). But as for when they met: The flashback in "There's No Place Like Home", which takes place on the same day where they first met in "Tallahassee", takes place in 2001, according to a title card. See this image. So they met in 2001, and Henry was born in the middle of August, indicating that he must have been conceived not long after they met.

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    • Aine1989 wrote: I find the idea of a man his twenties manipulating a child into a date, drinking with her and (...)

      Actually, in "There's No Place Like Home", Emma and Neal have the drink that Neal suggested in "Tallahassee", and it's not alcohol they're drinking. They are holding cups with lids and text on them, like the kind you get from a coffeehouse.

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    • Nightlily wrote:

      Aine1989 wrote: I find the idea of a man his twenties manipulating a child into a date, drinking with her and (...)

      Actually, in "There's No Place Like Home", Emma and Neal have the drink that Neal suggested in "Tallahassee", and it's not alcohol they're drinking. They are holding cups with lids and text on them, like the kind you get from a coffeehouse.

      Fair point. He still blackmailed an underage girl into a date (in an abandoned theme park no less!)

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    • Nightlily wrote:
      The writers of the show have never been very good with math, and yeah, there are quite a few holes in the show's timeline (I've pointed out all of them - I think - on my own timeline here). But as for when they met: The flashback in "There's No Place Like Home", which takes place on the same day where they first met in "Tallahassee", takes place in 2001, according to a title card. See this image. So they met in 2001, and Henry was born in the middle of August, indicating that he must have been conceived not long after they met.

      If Henry was born in the middle of August, then that throws off 5 seasons of canon age. He was 11 in mid season 2, which was in March, so his birthday cannot be August. The title card is a mistake.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:

      Nightlily wrote:
      The writers of the show have never been very good with math, and yeah, there are quite a few holes in the show's timeline (I've pointed out all of them - I think - on my own timeline here). But as for when they met: The flashback in "There's No Place Like Home", which takes place on the same day where they first met in "Tallahassee", takes place in 2001, according to a title card. See this image. So they met in 2001, and Henry was born in the middle of August, indicating that he must have been conceived not long after they met.

      If Henry was born in the middle of August, then that throws off 5 seasons of canon age. He was 11 in mid season 2, which was in March, so his birthday cannot be August. The title card is a mistake.

      It's not that simple, I'm afraid. We don't actually know how much time passed between Valentine's Day 2012 in "Skin Deep", and "A Land Without Magic", the final episode of season 1. Emma and MM's stay in the Enchanted Forest in the first nine episodes of season 2 could easily have lasted for weeks (a plot point in "Child of the Moon", by the way, is that it's the first full moon since the curse broke). And, most important of all, in "Child of the Moon", David says, "A few months ago, everyone thought Mary Margaret was guilty of murder." So even if MM was arrested not long after Valentine's day, mid season 2 should take place several months later, meaning that it's perfectly possible that Henry is eleven, or nearly eleven (people sometimes round up their age) in mid season two (he is stated to be eleven in "The Cricket Game" and "Manhattan").

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    • Since I dislike big quotes, 

      1. The writers are really going with the idea that Emma was 17 when she was with Neal. The writers, as Lily said, don't do math very well. So, that's more on the writers than anything else.

      Also, Baelfire had an American accent, not a British one. It doesn't take long to figure out somethings via the power of plot magic. There's nothing to say that he didn't take 5 years to learn all that.

      2. Emma could have said no. Neal clearly did the threat in jest, because he would have been locked up as well (which Emma realized). Emma didn't have to pursue a relationship with him, even if you believe he manipulated her into the first date. Second, Emma looks back on the relationship fondly and often mentions it to Henry.

      ABC. I'm not going to argue age of consent because in the US, it's 16 to 18 which means it is pointless to argue legality. If we did, then all the characters are in prison because they are all murderers.

      Emma was seen to be happy beyond the first encounter and even in that same encounter, she clearly wasn't afraid for her life and well-being by him. You act as though it was a scene from a PSA. Emma was startled that she stole someone's car with that someone in it. Anyone would be. Neal and Emma then have banter and then Neal covers for Emma when police come.

      But to not get off-track, Emma was still 17. Neal was ??. Neal and Emma have a happy relationship until he sets her up for a crime. Emma's age is a non-issue. Neal's age is unknown. The flyer is insignificant.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • I've rewatched the scene where they first meet, and when Neal says, "I don't need (your name) to have you arrested when the robbery's in progress", he says it in a playful, joking, humorous way - he is definitely not blackmailing or threatening her.

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    • Does it really matter whether she was 16 or 17? How much difference does that make? The fact is that she was a teenager, a lonely teenager with abandonment issues at that, and I think we all know how great decision making capabilities a person in such conditions will have. Adolescence in itself is an unstable period, add to that Emma's past, and bad decisions follow.

      Let's take into account that she was living on petty thievery. She meets this older guy, a fellow thief, when they steal the same car. This guy turns her into his crime partner, teaches her more tricks, drags her deeper into this life. Does any of this sound vaguely positive? I understand that it was apparently all they could to survive. Let's change that to all he could do to survive, coz Emma did turn her life around. Anyway, the fact that Neal, the 'responsible' adult in the relationship, was dragging a teenager, who still had some hope for the future, into life as a criminal and fugitive from the law. Everything good in her life happened after Neal left her.

      I could still get through that and be happy about it if they had went on to have a lasting happy relationship well into Emma's adulthood, if hooking up with Neal didn't end up as a teenage mistake.

      It ended up being worse. Emma was abandoned yet again, and left to take the fall for his crime, and bonus, pregnant, alone, in jail, giving birth chained to a bed, giving up her baby because there was no way she could handle motherhood even after the 2-3 months left in her sentence. Which of these screams positive about her ex?

      I don't care about his reasons. Pinocchio told him it was for the best and he believed him as easily as that? What told him Pinocchio was the best decision maker? The supposed guardian angel was absent for most of Emma's life, too busy messing up his own. You don't just listen to strangers and leave your girlfriend to be arrested, just because they know your identity from your old realm.

      What was worse was the way SwanFire picked up afterwards. The guy actually has the audacity to be mad at her or yell at her about bringing his father to him. If I were Emma I'd have beaten the hell out of him. Then he yells at her because she didn't tell him they had a son. He doesn't deserve to be a father to a son he abandoned before they even knew he existed. 

      I don't know why everyone tries to show Neal in a positive light. Henry is mad at Emma about lying, but doesn't consider her reasons for doing so, but with Neal he's all chummy from day one. Her parents continuously try to push her towards him, despite knowing what he did. I guess there's only certain characters whose wrongdoings are ever taken into consideration.

      Long rant, couldn't help it. Neal gets on my nerves.

      @Eskaver I think a pretty non-biased anti-SF blog, which claims to hate SwanFire for SwanFire and not because they ship someone else with Emma, is the perfect place to go if you want to know why not to ship SwanFire.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Since I dislike big quotes, 

      1. The writers are really going with the idea that Emma was 17 when she was with Neal. The writers, as Lily said, don't do math very well. So, that's more on the writers than anything else.

      Also, Baelfire had an American accent, not a British one. It doesn't take long to figure out somethings via the power of plot magic. There's nothing to say that he didn't take 5 years to learn all that.

      2. Emma could have said no. Neal clearly did the threat in jest, because he would have been locked up as well (which Emma realized). Emma didn't have to pursue a relationship with him, even if you believe he manipulated her into the first date. Second, Emma looks back on the relationship fondly and often mentions it to Henry.

      ABC. I'm not going to argue age of consent because in the US, it's 16 to 18 which means it is pointless to argue legality. If we did, then all the characters are in prison because they are all murderers.

      Emma was seen to be happy beyond the first encounter and even in that same encounter, she clearly wasn't afraid for her life and well-being by him. You act as though it was a scene from a PSA. Emma was startled that she stole someone's car with that someone in it. Anyone would be. Neal and Emma then have banter and then Neal covers for Emma when police come.

      But to not get off-track, Emma was still 17. Neal was ??. Neal and Emma have a happy relationship until he sets her up for a crime. Emma's age is a non-issue. Neal's age is unknown. The flyer is insignificant.

      Simple maths works out Emma's age. In canon, Emma was 16.

      But really 16 or 17 with an adult is still creepy and predatory. Do you really expect me to believe that he learned to effortlessly navigate a completely foreign world-including crossing borders and getting jobs-in five years? And the most logical explanation is that social servies picked him up and he got an ID close to his own age. So no, the flyer is not insignificant.

      In the state they were in, the age of consent was 18, making Neal a sexual abuser and the relationship just generally creepy (even if she were 17 or 18 I'd still find that he pursued and hit on a teenager creepy).

      Just because Neal was laughing as he blackmailed her into giving away her name doesn't mean it was any less bad. It was a reminder  of who held the power.

      And Emma's "fond memories" are, in my view anyway, both as a result of the writers determined to retcon Neal into some kind of romantic hero and because she doesn't want Henry to have bad memories of his dad. But she said he caused her so much pain that she wished he was dead and that he was "a part of my life that I wanted to forget". Not very fondly. (plus "often"? I count once in 5x05).

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Simple maths works out Emma's age. In canon, Emma was 16.

      Factual correction: She was 17, not 16. They met in 2001* and Emma was born in October 1983. And in "The Price of Gold", she says to Ashley that she was eighteen years old when she gave birth to Henry (yeah, I know, if Henry was born in August, she would have been seventeen, but she could simply have been rounding up her age for convenience).

      *In addition to the title card from "There's No...", this is supported by the fact that a title card for "Tallahassee" says that the flashback scenes take place eleven years before the frame story, and the frame story takes place in 2012.

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    • I won't debate something that seems immovable, but the fact that the age makes no difference to you pretty much demonstrates a bias that I can't debate. If Neal dates a '16 year old" and Neal dates an "18 year old", screams equally creepy, methinks that you just don't like Neal. I could argue that Emma lived and was raised in Minnesota (which age of consent is 16), so she'd think that way and nothing would change.

      It could take Neal like a year or so for all we know. It isn't hard to get a job and learn to steal if you find the right crowd. It could take betwen 2 to 5 years to become a US citizen and who knows if there were shady practices. (The writers don't know technical details because then, Regina's adoption of Henry was shady.)

      The only bad part of their relationship is when he abandoned Emma, which hurts Emma the most. Nothing else was bad according to Emma. You can scream retcon, but it's not retconned when it was never said to be a bad relationship otherwise. All we saw was them meet, Emma and Neal having some thievery fun, then Emma get set up. The relationship was over the course of months and we only see nice things (before the set-up) in flashback since. Emma never said otherwise, even in that season. 

      If you can't see some possibility in that, then I'll move on because frankly, I don't even like Neal.

      2012(season 2/3a) - 11(Henry's age) = 2011 - 10 = 2001; Henry was born, Emma was 17 and 10 months old. Henry was conceived when Emma was 17.

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    • Here's my two cents: the math is weird because writers usually aren't very good at math. Even J.K. Rowling initally messed up the math in Chamber of Secrets with Nearly Headless Nick and his deathday (it was corrected in later editions). So forget the actual ages, the intention is that Emma was 17 when Henry was concived and 18 when she gave birth. But that is not the big problem here, the big problem is you are acting like Neal is some 40 year old man who was heir to a crime family or something. Neal is like a 21 year old orphan, who has to resort to crime and the like, because he has no real identification, due to coming from a different world. The actual age is impossible to say, because he was 14 in London in 18XX, but then when to Neverland for 100+ years, and didn't age. But it doesn't matter, we know he was in his early 20's, and we know that the male brain doesn't fully mature until like 28. Basically, it is unfair to say that Neal was some really mature adult, and Emma was a naive little girl, when they both had about the same level of maturity.

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    • I am not going to even discuss the math and age issue. To me there is no issue, even if Emma is 16.  Neal is who knows how old, but he spent most of that time in Neverland and not growing up, so that when he actually arrived in the US after being in neverland, he was still the 14-15 year old boy that he was when he left the Darlings. (Ok, a little math...) so, even if it took 8 years for him to learn his tricks, he would be only 22-23 years old. (and the MRJ is much older than that).  a 23 year-old with a 16-year old is a little creepy, maybe, but not totally out of line. Even if Neal leaves Neverland just before the casting the Dark Curse (which is a distinct possibility), he's going to be at most 32. Now, I will agree a 32 year old with a 16 year old is stretching things in terms of what we might consider normal, but I would accept even that, given some people that I know that have been in similar circumstances. Bottom line is that Emma's age is simply not an issue as far as I'm concerned.

      Having said that, Everyone seems to harp on Neal dumping Emma. But let's look at that situation. Neal is enjoying his time with Emma, and they are both considering moving to Canada with the stolen watches. Suddenly, August shows up and talks to Neal, reveals to Neal all of the information about who Emma really is and what she needs to do. Neal agrees to step aside to allow 'fate' to continue, but he was not happy about that decision, and that is made clear in the show.  If anyone is to blame for what happened to Emma fter she met Neal it is August, not Neal.

      And Emma straightening up after Neal leaving is not an accurate picture, either. Emma was still on the run 9 years later, evading parole, when she was captured by Cleo Fox. it was only after that encounter that she veered more toward the "straight and narrow", which led to what we saw back in the pilot.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Here's my two cents: the math is weird because writers usually aren't very good at math. Even J.K. Rowling initally messed up the math in Chamber of Secrets with Nearly Headless Nick and his deathday (it was corrected in later editions). So forget the actual ages, the intention is that Emma was 17 when Henry was concived and 18 when she gave birth. But that is not the big problem here, the big problem is you are acting like Neal is some 40 year old man who was heir to a crime family or something. Neal is like a 21 year old orphan, who has to resort to crime and the like, because he has no real identification, due to coming from a different world. The actual age is impossible to say, because he was 14 in London in 18XX, but then when to Neverland for 100+ years, and didn't age. But it doesn't matter, we know he was in his early 20's, and we know that the male brain doesn't fully mature until like 28. Basically, it is unfair to say that Neal was some really mature adult, and Emma was a naive little girl, when they both had about the same level of maturity.

      Are you seriously trying to play a "men are just immature" card to try to make a relationship between a child and adult ok? As I have stated (twice) basic maths puts Emma at 16 when she was with Neal.

      Emma was a little girl, who was starved for love her whole life and Neal was an adult.

      And may I point out that he did not have to resort to crime? He had a job which he then compromised because "the manager was asking to get took".

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    • Aine1989 wrote:

      Just because Neal was laughing as he blackmailed her into giving away her name doesn't mean it was any less bad. It was a reminder of who held the power.

      Sorry, but I think you are reading way too much into things. He was only joking, and Emma understood that. It's as simple as that.

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    • Nightlily wrote:

      Aine1989 wrote:

      Just because Neal was laughing as he blackmailed her into giving away her name doesn't mean it was any less bad. It was a reminder of who held the power.

      Sorry, but I think you are reading way too much into things. He was only joking, and Emma understood that. It's as simple as that.

      Puts me on edge because it does sound like a threat/manipulation (not like that would be ooc for Neal)

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Here's my two cents: the math is weird because writers usually aren't very good at math. Even J.K. Rowling initally messed up the math in Chamber of Secrets with Nearly Headless Nick and his deathday (it was corrected in later editions). So forget the actual ages, the intention is that Emma was 17 when Henry was concived and 18 when she gave birth. But that is not the big problem here, the big problem is you are acting like Neal is some 40 year old man who was heir to a crime family or something. Neal is like a 21 year old orphan, who has to resort to crime and the like, because he has no real identification, due to coming from a different world. The actual age is impossible to say, because he was 14 in London in 18XX, but then when to Neverland for 100+ years, and didn't age. But it doesn't matter, we know he was in his early 20's, and we know that the male brain doesn't fully mature until like 28. Basically, it is unfair to say that Neal was some really mature adult, and Emma was a naive little girl, when they both had about the same level of maturity.
      Are you seriously trying to play a "men are just immature" card to try to make a relationship between a child and adult ok? As I have stated (twice) basic maths puts Emma at 16 when she was with Neal.

      Emma was a little girl, who was starved for love her whole life and Neal was an adult.

      And may I point out that he did not have to resort to crime? He had a job which he then compromised because "the manager was asking to get took".

      Your making it like a 16 year old girl is some naive child, I went to high school, those girls knew exactly what they were doing. And they were girls who had a stable home life. Emma, having to fend for herself, would be much older brainwise. Also, I like how you completely ignore my (and everyone else's point) about how Neal was not that much older, and how he spend 100+ years as a 14 year old boy. If you don't like Neal, that's fine, but you don't need to try and justify it by making Neal like he is worse than the 10+ actual villains on the show, who commit everything from murder, to rape, to theft, to kidnapping, to god knows what else. In the grand scheme of things, whatever crimes Neal commited, don't even rank in the top ten of terrible things done by characters on this show. I mean Emma's current love interest is literally a pirate. Think about that.

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Here's my two cents: the math is weird because writers usually aren't very good at math. Even J.K. Rowling initally messed up the math in Chamber of Secrets with Nearly Headless Nick and his deathday (it was corrected in later editions). So forget the actual ages, the intention is that Emma was 17 when Henry was concived and 18 when she gave birth. But that is not the big problem here, the big problem is you are acting like Neal is some 40 year old man who was heir to a crime family or something. Neal is like a 21 year old orphan, who has to resort to crime and the like, because he has no real identification, due to coming from a different world. The actual age is impossible to say, because he was 14 in London in 18XX, but then when to Neverland for 100+ years, and didn't age. But it doesn't matter, we know he was in his early 20's, and we know that the male brain doesn't fully mature until like 28. Basically, it is unfair to say that Neal was some really mature adult, and Emma was a naive little girl, when they both had about the same level of maturity.
      Are you seriously trying to play a "men are just immature" card to try to make a relationship between a child and adult ok? As I have stated (twice) basic maths puts Emma at 16 when she was with Neal.

      Emma was a little girl, who was starved for love her whole life and Neal was an adult.

      And may I point out that he did not have to resort to crime? He had a job which he then compromised because "the manager was asking to get took".

      Your making it like a 16 year old girl is some naive child, I went to high school, those girls knew exactly what they were doing. And they were girls who had a stable home life. Emma, having to fend for herself, would be much older brainwise. Also, I like how you completely ignore my (and everyone else's point) about how Neal was not that much older, and how he spend 100+ years as a 14 year old boy. If you don't like Neal, that's fine, but you don't need to try and justify it by making Neal like he is worse than the 10+ actual villains on the show, who commit everything from murder, to rape, to theft, to kidnapping, to god knows what else. In the grand scheme of things, whatever crimes Neal commited, don't even rank in the top ten of terrible things done by characters on this show. I mean Emma's current love interest is literally a pirate. Think about that.

      Well technically, Neal did commit statuatory rape and theft.

      23 is much more mature than 16 (which, while it is not a naive age it's not mature enough to think about sex with an older man or starting a new life with your boyfriend). I love how you ignore every single time I point out that there is a huge maturity difference (and power imbalance) between Neal and Emma at that stage.

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    • Emma was 17, not 16. Neal's visual age is unknown. These are facts.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Here's my two cents: the math is weird because writers usually aren't very good at math. Even J.K. Rowling initally messed up the math in Chamber of Secrets with Nearly Headless Nick and his deathday (it was corrected in later editions). So forget the actual ages, the intention is that Emma was 17 when Henry was concived and 18 when she gave birth. But that is not the big problem here, the big problem is you are acting like Neal is some 40 year old man who was heir to a crime family or something. Neal is like a 21 year old orphan, who has to resort to crime and the like, because he has no real identification, due to coming from a different world. The actual age is impossible to say, because he was 14 in London in 18XX, but then when to Neverland for 100+ years, and didn't age. But it doesn't matter, we know he was in his early 20's, and we know that the male brain doesn't fully mature until like 28. Basically, it is unfair to say that Neal was some really mature adult, and Emma was a naive little girl, when they both had about the same level of maturity.
      Are you seriously trying to play a "men are just immature" card to try to make a relationship between a child and adult ok? As I have stated (twice) basic maths puts Emma at 16 when she was with Neal.

      Emma was a little girl, who was starved for love her whole life and Neal was an adult.

      And may I point out that he did not have to resort to crime? He had a job which he then compromised because "the manager was asking to get took".

      Your making it like a 16 year old girl is some naive child, I went to high school, those girls knew exactly what they were doing. And they were girls who had a stable home life. Emma, having to fend for herself, would be much older brainwise. Also, I like how you completely ignore my (and everyone else's point) about how Neal was not that much older, and how he spend 100+ years as a 14 year old boy. If you don't like Neal, that's fine, but you don't need to try and justify it by making Neal like he is worse than the 10+ actual villains on the show, who commit everything from murder, to rape, to theft, to kidnapping, to god knows what else. In the grand scheme of things, whatever crimes Neal commited, don't even rank in the top ten of terrible things done by characters on this show. I mean Emma's current love interest is literally a pirate. Think about that.
      Well technically, Neal did commit statuatory rape and theft.

      23 is much more mature than 16 (which, while it is not a naive age it's not mature enough to think about sex with an older man or starting a new life with your boyfriend). I love how you ignore every single time I point out that there is a huge maturity difference (and power imbalance) between Neal and Emma at that stage.

      People have pointed this out already, but Neal didn't statuatory rape Emma, as they were in a state where 17 is the legal age to have sex (which Emma was, your just going to have to believe us when we say the writers suck at math). As for the theft part, yes Neal commited theft, as did Emma, Snow, Robin, and about 100 other characters on this show. As for the maturity difference, that is all subjective. I know 16 year olds that are more mature than 30 year olds. Not everyone matures at the same rate. You are percieving that difference and the power imbalance, but the show did not frame it that way at all. This isn't to say Emma and Neal were the perfect couple, and that every 17 year old girl should go and get pregnant, but the point of the show is to show something that could really happen, and girls do get pregnant at 17 (and younger). Basically, both Emma and Neal were young and stupid. If Neal was so mature, as you claim, he wouldn't have let some random guy convince him to leave Emma and to let her go to jail. Everything is relative.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      People have pointed this out already, but Neal didn't statuatory rape Emma, as they were in a state where 17 is the legal age to have sex.

      I'm not going into to enter into the debate about statutory rape, but I thought the age of consent in Oregon was 18, not 17?

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Nightlily wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      People have pointed this out already, but Neal didn't statuatory rape Emma, as they were in a state where 17 is the legal age to have sex.

      I'm not going into to enter into the debate about statutory rape, but I thought the age of consent in Oregon was 18, not 17?

      Age of consent is 18 in Oregon.

      Nevertheless, this "other" debate is quite weird.  (To not draw any correlation, but Regina, Rumple, and Hook are all mass murderers, but this isn't used to present them as soiciopathic monsters.)

      Still, Emma was 17. That's the answer to the OP's question.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Nightlily wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      People have pointed this out already, but Neal didn't statuatory rape Emma, as they were in a state where 17 is the legal age to have sex.

      I'm not going into to enter into the debate about statutory rape, but I thought the age of consent in Oregon was 18, not 17?

      We don't know that Neal and Emma had sex in Oregon. Most likely the writers intended for her to have sex in a state where 17 is legal.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Nightlily wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote:
      People have pointed this out already, but Neal didn't statuatory rape Emma, as they were in a state where 17 is the legal age to have sex.

      I'm not going into to enter into the debate about statutory rape, but I thought the age of consent in Oregon was 18, not 17?
      We don't know that Neal and Emma had sex in Oregon. Most likely the writers intended for her to have sex in a state where 17 is legal.

      I think it was Oregon. But I would agree with the second statement. I don't even think that the writers thought about age of consent in Oregon.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Question. We are all discussing What Emma's age was when she was with Neal, but the question I have is Why is it important? 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Question. We are all discussing What Emma's age was when she was with Neal, but the question I have is Why is it important? 

      I'm guessing it's to figure it out. The wiki has it at 17/18 and by simple math it is true. In essense, we solved that dilemma. (However, there's this notion that Emma was 16 years old and victim to a terrible crime by a horrendous individual).

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Well, simple math...  Henry was 10 on Emma's 28th birthday.  28-10 = 18.  Allow 9 months for the gestation period, and 2 months to allow for the difference between Emma and Henry's birthdays (Henry is in August and Emma in October), you take another year. So Emma was 17, but just barely, when she conceived.

      Depending on how long they were together before they 'hooked up', it is conceivable ("you keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.") that Emma was 16. But the length of their relationship prior to conception is an unknown variable.

      And as for age of consent, Emma's last residence was in Minnesota, where the age of consent is 16. Most people probably don't keep track of the differing age of consent laws by state, but would likely be aware of the age of consent where the live and grow up. Which could also explain why a 16/17 year old Emma is on her own in Oregon, since she possibly believed that, because she had attained the age of consent in Minnesota, she was 'free'.

      The point being that trying to describe the relationship between Neal and Emma as a terrible crime just seems to be a little ludicrous.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Well, simple math...  Henry was 10 on Emma's 28th birthday.  28-10 = 18.  Allow 9 months for the gestation period, and 2 months to allow for the difference between Emma and Henry's birthdays (Henry is in August and Emma in October), you take another year. So Emma was 17, but just barely, when she conceived.

      Depending on how long they were together before they 'hooked up', it is conceivable ("you keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.") that Emma was 16. But the length of their relationship prior to conception is an unknown variable.

      And as for age of consent, Emma's last residence was in Minnesota, where the age of consent is 16. Most people probably don't keep track of the differing age of consent laws by state, but would likely be aware of the age of consent where the live and grow up. Which could also explain why a 16/17 year old Emma is on her own in Oregon, since she possibly believed that, because she had attained the age of consent in Minnesota, she was 'free'.

      The point being that trying to describe the relationship between Neal and Emma as a terrible crime just seems to be a little ludicrous.

      Except his brithday was not August; per the show's canon it is March/April. He said he was 11 in Manhatten, which takes place in about March/April, so he had to have turned 11 at some point between then and the end of s1.

      And they met in Oregon where the age is 18.

      So technically it is a crime. And in my view, just plain creepy. 

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Well, simple math...  Henry was 10 on Emma's 28th birthday.  28-10 = 18.  Allow 9 months for the gestation period, and 2 months to allow for the difference between Emma and Henry's birthdays (Henry is in August and Emma in October), you take another year. So Emma was 17, but just barely, when she conceived.

      Depending on how long they were together before they 'hooked up', it is conceivable ("you keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.") that Emma was 16. But the length of their relationship prior to conception is an unknown variable.

      And as for age of consent, Emma's last residence was in Minnesota, where the age of consent is 16. Most people probably don't keep track of the differing age of consent laws by state, but would likely be aware of the age of consent where the live and grow up. Which could also explain why a 16/17 year old Emma is on her own in Oregon, since she possibly believed that, because she had attained the age of consent in Minnesota, she was 'free'.

      The point being that trying to describe the relationship between Neal and Emma as a terrible crime just seems to be a little ludicrous.

      Except his brithday was not August; per the show's canon it is March/April. He said he was 11 in Manhatten, which takes place in about March/April, so he had to have turned 11 at some point between then and the end of s1.

      And they met in Oregon where the age is 18.

      So technically it is a crime. And in my view, just plain creepy. 

      The thing is people seem to not accept that people round up their ages. You think he was really 13 when he met Violet? So to you, it's creepy because it's against the law. What if this happened in Washington or Montana or Arkansas? This wouldn't seem creepy because it's not against law? Our inferences about a subject mustn't go with the idea of being against something (religion, morality, law) in that territory, but of ourselves; otherwise, we can't criticize anything truthfully. This is like "Driving cars in Arabia for women seems creepy because it's against the law"...

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • CadoDoan wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Well, simple math...  Henry was 10 on Emma's 28th birthday.  28-10 = 18.  Allow 9 months for the gestation period, and 2 months to allow for the difference between Emma and Henry's birthdays (Henry is in August and Emma in October), you take another year. So Emma was 17, but just barely, when she conceived.

      Depending on how long they were together before they 'hooked up', it is conceivable ("you keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.") that Emma was 16. But the length of their relationship prior to conception is an unknown variable.

      And as for age of consent, Emma's last residence was in Minnesota, where the age of consent is 16. Most people probably don't keep track of the differing age of consent laws by state, but would likely be aware of the age of consent where the live and grow up. Which could also explain why a 16/17 year old Emma is on her own in Oregon, since she possibly believed that, because she had attained the age of consent in Minnesota, she was 'free'.

      The point being that trying to describe the relationship between Neal and Emma as a terrible crime just seems to be a little ludicrous.

      Except his brithday was not August; per the show's canon it is March/April. He said he was 11 in Manhatten, which takes place in about March/April, so he had to have turned 11 at some point between then and the end of s1.

      And they met in Oregon where the age is 18.

      So technically it is a crime. And in my view, just plain creepy. 

      The thing is people seem to not accept that people round up their ages. You think he was really 13 when he met Violet? So to you, it's creepy because it's against the law. What if this happened in Washington or Montana or Arkansas? This wouldn't seem creepy because it's not against law? Our inferences about a subject mustn't go with the idea of being against something (religion, morality, law) in that territory, but of ourselves; otherwise, we can't criticize anything truthfully. This is like "Driving cars in Arabia for women seems creepy because it's against the law"...

      What the hell does Henry's age now have to doo with anything? He turned 11 in spring 2012, that is canon. Do the maths.

      No it's creepy because an adult man seduced and impregnated a teenage girl. Imagine Abby Ross playing Emma in those scenes with Neal

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • "Seduced" ha? Whatever you are impossible.

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    • CadoDoan wrote:
      "Seduced" ha? Whatever you are impossible.

      Well yes, seduced. He got her to have sex with him. "Groomed" is another good word. "Hit on" too. 

      Let me rephrase then:

      "it's creepy because an adult man hit on and impregnated a teenage girl."

      [picture speaks a thousand words, right?]

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Question. We are all discussing What Emma's age was when she was with Neal, but the question I have is Why is it important? 
      I'm guessing it's to figure it out. The wiki has it at 17/18 and by simple math it is true. In essense, we solved that dilemma. (However, there's this notion that Emma was 16 years old and victim to a terrible crime by a horrendous individual).

      Actually, simple math puts her at 16. Read the top of this thread, y'all, I put it there for a reason (actually her being 18 is mathematically impossible but k).

      And yes she was a victim of sexual abuse (then later being imprisoned and put through trauma). And I wouldn't use the word horrendous for Neal. Just douchey, really. Asshole is another good one.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Adam was brought to his attention by someone that they said Emma was 16, he said that was not right. Henry was born and conceived in 2001, Emma was 17, going on 18. I don't know if you aren't being serious or not, but that is how it works out mathematically. It's misinformative to discuss various topics under false assumptions.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Question. We are all discussing What Emma's age was when she was with Neal, but the question I have is Why is it important? 
      I'm guessing it's to figure it out. The wiki has it at 17/18 and by simple math it is true. In essense, we solved that dilemma. (However, there's this notion that Emma was 16 years old and victim to a terrible crime by a horrendous individual).
      Actually, simple math puts her at 16. Read the top of this thread, y'all, I put it there for a reason (actually her being 18 is mathematically impossible but k).

      And yes she was a victim of sexual abuse (then later being imprisoned and put through trauma). And I wouldn't use the word horrendous for Neal. Just douchey, really. Asshole is another good one.

      So, you're basically spreading hate about a couple and a part of the fandom by being really rude against a character? And, at the same time, you don't seem to see the problems with CS love story?

      Guess it tells us a lot about many things ^^

      Emma was 17, when she ended up being pregnant by Neal. You can re check your maths if you think it is 16. Some people of our wiki work quite a lot on the timeline, and it is really uncommon that they make big mistakes like that. So yeah, if these people tell us she was 17, then I'll tend to trust them.

      Plus; there is no need to pretend wrong things because you are not happy by this part of Emma's life. Neal did play of Emma, they both fall in love, and they were truly in love. That's clearly the message of the show, and what happened in the series. Henry was born from two people who were in love in their time. Love. Family. Hope.

      And that's not really by twisting the events or facts as you want them, that it'll change something to this message. So yeah, if your point was just to spread hate against one character and one possible part of the fans (because yeah, just the title of the tumblr shows us that), I don't think it is a good reason to start a discussion.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • So, you're basically spreading hate about a couple and a part of the fandom by being really rude against a character? And, at the same time, you don't seem to see the problems with CS love story?

      1. Why are you bringing CS into this? If you can't protect your fave without bringing in another character, you have already lost. 2. This actually started as a response to someone else I just made a new thread to avoid clogging the old one up 3. If there can be anti cs threads I see no reason why I can't have this one.

      Guess it tells us a lot about many things ^^

      Emma was 17, when she ended up being pregnant by Neal. Plus; there is no need to pretend wrong things because you are not happy by this part of Emma's life. Neal did play of Emma, they both fall in love, and they were truly in love. That's clearly the message of the show, and what happened in the series. Henry was born from two people who were in love in their time. Love. Family. Hope.

      Emma was sixteen, as I have shown evidence for, and was groomed by an adult man. I am not happy with this part of Emma's life-she was sexually abused by a man who took advantage of her. Good for them, they were in love. Doesn't change the fact that he saw a teenager and proceeded to ask her out, try to make a future with her then had unprotected sex with her. I am uncomfortable with the fact that the show is portraying this as cute when it should be saying to young girls that if an adult tries to hook up with you then you should get help.

      And that's not really by twisting the events or facts as you want them, that it'll change something to this message. So yeah, if your point was just to spread hate against one character and one possible part of the fans (because yeah, just the title of the tumblr shows us that), I don't think it is a good reason to start a discussion.

      What am I twisting exactly? I am stating canon. As I stated at the start (did anyone read that?) this was in response to someone else and I made another thread to avoid clogging up the other one with stuff that wasn't relevant.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • (MOD) There's no need to discuss ships and toss accusations. That doesn't lead to productive conversation.

      Adam (Creator/Executive Producer/Writer) says that Emma being 16 isn't true.

      Link: https://twitter.com/adamhorowitzla/status/366788337404612609

      The in-show has said that Henry was born in 2011 and was 10. Emma was 17, going on 18 in 2011. Emma says she 18 (obviously rounding up). 

      The wiki says Emma was going on 18 and things are typically verified.

      Math says 2001 - 1983 = Emma was 17 going on 18.

      Otherwise, this thread may have to be closed based on disregard to discussion, and spreading misinformation.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • "If you can't protect your fave without bringing in another character, you have already lost." I'm sorry? Protect my fave? Already lost? I don't think you understand the point of this wiki at all. We're not here to do wars, especially ship wars cos they are the worst. You can have your opinion, but being rude about a potential part of the fans is definitely not a good thing.

      "If there can be anti cs threads I see no reason why I can't have this one." Honestly, if your whole point for this thread, is just to have a kind of revenge because of the other thread, then I'm sorry but I don't think it is a good reason. Again, we're not there to spread hate. People can discuss and give their opinions without being rude against some characters, writers or other fans.

      "As I stated at the start (did anyone read that?) this was in response to someone else". Again, if your whole point is just to have revenge because of a potential disagreement about another ship... Then, this thread is just wrong to me.

      About the facts, well Emma was 17. Many people already tried to explain you why, but you're free to stick on your positions if you want it so much ^^

      Then, "a man who took advantage of her". So... you're calling Emma naive or stupid? Because, that's not what I saw in the series. Emma was kinda able to take care of herself alone, she was already doing it. She was not also the best person of the world. And she knew perfectly what she was doing. Yeah; she was 17 going on her 18; but at this age, she perfectly knew what she was doing. You're just playing with the legal age in Oregon to pretend that Neal was a sexual harrasser or a pedophile. We're talking about 17 year old Emma, not when she was 8 year old. There was no abuse and no trick in this love story, whatever you try to pretend. They both perfectly knew what they were doing. Again, Emma was not an idiot, she has always been strong and very intelligent. So yeah, I do think you're twisting the events to purposely make Neal look bad. As a pure "anti-swanfire" ^^

      And as Eskaver said it (I think it was you buddy? ^^), if this story happened in another state; this thread would have zero point to exist.


      EDIT: Was writing while Eskaver was doing his anser. But yeah, this thread is "spreading misinformation" since a moment now.

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    • Yeah, I mentioned that Emma was raised in Minnesota where the AoC is 16. So, it wasn't bizarre to her as she would likely know age of consent in Minnesota than Oregon, which she randomly was in at that time. Legality is weird because of that. (But this is a show of patricidal mass murders and thieving babynappers).

      On the off-note, there are no hate threads for any romance or character if it does not lead to a productive conversation. Example, "Did Regina ruin Robin's life (which was mentioned in the show)" or "Has Rumple stepped too far?", but if they become accusatory shoutfests, then it's no longer open.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:

      So, you're basically spreading hate about a couple and a part of the fandom by being really rude against a character? And, at the same time, you don't seem to see the problems with CS love story?

      1. Why are you bringing CS into this? If you can't protect your fave without bringing in another character, you have already lost. 2. This actually started as a response to someone else I just made a new thread to avoid clogging the old one up 3. If there can be anti cs threads I see no reason why I can't have this one.

      If you have to make up ages, you have lost, clearly.

      Guess it tells us a lot about many things ^^

      Emma was 17, when she ended up being pregnant by Neal. Plus; there is no need to pretend wrong things because you are not happy by this part of Emma's life. Neal did play of Emma, they both fall in love, and they were truly in love. That's clearly the message of the show, and what happened in the series. Henry was born from two people who were in love in their time. Love. Family. Hope.

      Emma was sixteen, as I have shown evidence for, and was groomed by an adult man. I am not happy with this part of Emma's life-she was sexually abused by a man who took advantage of her. Good for them, they were in love. Doesn't change the fact that he saw a teenager and proceeded to ask her out, try to make a future with her then had unprotected sex with her. I am uncomfortable with the fact that the show is portraying this as cute when it should be saying to young girls that if an adult tries to hook up with you then you should get help.

      She was not 16, as we have all pointed out mulitple times. She was 17. If your just going to make things up, I can too. "Well, Neal was 14 when he went to Neverland, and we never confirmed he aged, so who is the real predator here?" Also, if young girls (which to me is like 5 - 10) are compairing themselves to a 16 year old, they have bigger issues than this show. Finally, stop making it like Neal was some 45 year old pervert going after a 12 year old. Emma was 17, Neal was like 22. That is very similar age wise.

      And that's not really by twisting the events or facts as you want them, that it'll change something to this message. So yeah, if your point was just to spread hate against one character and one possible part of the fans (because yeah, just the title of the tumblr shows us that), I don't think it is a good reason to start a discussion.

      What am I twisting exactly? I am stating canon. As I stated at the start (did anyone read that?) this was in response to someone else and I made another thread to avoid clogging up the other one with stuff that wasn't relevant.

      Did you read what we wrote? And what your stating is not canon. Canon is she was 17 when Henry was concieved and 18 when she gave birth to him. On that note, Henry's canon birthday is August 15. Any oddities with the dates is just because the writers suck at math. The canon is what I just stated.

      Comments in bold above.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Except his birthday was not August; per the show's canon it is March/April. He said he was 11 in Manhattan, which takes place in about March/April, so he had to have turned 11 at some point between then and the end of s1.

      No, as far as I know, the show's canon does not say that it's March/April.
      1) We don't know how much time passed between Valentine's Day 2012 in "Skin Deep" and "A Land Without Magic". We know that Kathryn disappeared for a week (as seen in "The Stable Boy"), and the events of "The Return" take place shortly after "The Stable Boy", but we don't know how much time passes between "The Return" and "The Stranger" (which is followed by "An Apple Red..." and "A Land..:", which take place immediately after "The Stranger").
      2) Emma and Mary Margaret's stay in the Enchanted Forest in the first nine episodes of season 2 could easily have lasted for weeks.
      3) In "Child of the Moon", David says, "A few months ago, everyone thought Mary Margaret was guilty of murder."
      4) So, to sum it up: Even if MM was arrested not long after Valentine's day, mid season 2 should take place several months later, meaning that it's perfectly possible that Henry is eleven, or nearly eleven, in mid season two.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Nightlily wrote:

      Aine1989 wrote:
      Except his birthday was not August; per the show's canon it is March/April. He said he was 11 in Manhattan, which takes place in about March/April, so he had to have turned 11 at some point between then and the end of s1.

      No, as far as I know, the show's canon does not say that it's March/April.
      1) We don't know how much time passed between Valentine's Day 2012 in "Skin Deep" and "A Land Without Magic". We know that Kathryn disappeared for a week (as seen in "The Stable Boy"), and the events of "The Return" take place shortly after "The Stable Boy", but we don't know how much time passes between "The Return" and "The Stranger" (which is followed by "An Apple Red..." and "A Land..:", which take place immediately after "The Stranger").
      2) Emma and Mary Margaret's stay in the Enchanted Forest in the first nine episodes of season 2 could easily have lasted for weeks.
      3) In "Child of the Moon", David says, "A few months ago, everyone thought Mary Margaret was guilty of murder."
      4) So, to sum it up: Even if MM was arrested not long after Valentine's day, mid season 2 should take place several months later, meaning that it's perfectly possible that Henry is eleven, or nearly eleven, in mid season two.

      It's not "entirely possbile", he outright says he is 11 in mid season two.

      How exactly do you know it was "several months" later? I would take two months tops because we've never had any reason to believe otherwise.

      So let's say 2x14 was two months after V Day, so its April, meaning Henry was 11 in March April 2012. Born in March/April 2001, conveived in July/August 2000. Do the maths yourself

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:

      So, you're basically spreading hate about a couple and a part of the fandom by being really rude against a character? And, at the same time, you don't seem to see the problems with CS love story?

      1. Why are you bringing CS into this? If you can't protect your fave without bringing in another character, you have already lost. 2. This actually started as a response to someone else I just made a new thread to avoid clogging the old one up 3. If there can be anti cs threads I see no reason why I can't have this one.

      If you have to make up ages, you have lost, clearly.

      Guess it tells us a lot about many things ^^

      Emma was 17, when she ended up being pregnant by Neal. Plus; there is no need to pretend wrong things because you are not happy by this part of Emma's life. Neal did play of Emma, they both fall in love, and they were truly in love. That's clearly the message of the show, and what happened in the series. Henry was born from two people who were in love in their time. Love. Family. Hope.

      Emma was sixteen, as I have shown evidence for, and was groomed by an adult man. I am not happy with this part of Emma's life-she was sexually abused by a man who took advantage of her. Good for them, they were in love. Doesn't change the fact that he saw a teenager and proceeded to ask her out, try to make a future with her then had unprotected sex with her. I am uncomfortable with the fact that the show is portraying this as cute when it should be saying to young girls that if an adult tries to hook up with you then you should get help.

      She was not 16, as we have all pointed out mulitple times. She was 17. If your just going to make things up, I can too. "Well, Neal was 14 when he went to Neverland, and we never confirmed he aged, so who is the real predator here?" Also, if young girls (which to me is like 5 - 10) are compairing themselves to a 16 year old, they have bigger issues than this show. Finally, stop making it like Neal was some 45 year old pervert going after a 12 year old. Emma was 17, Neal was like 22. That is very similar age wise.

      And that's not really by twisting the events or facts as you want them, that it'll change something to this message. So yeah, if your point was just to spread hate against one character and one possible part of the fans (because yeah, just the title of the tumblr shows us that), I don't think it is a good reason to start a discussion.

      What am I twisting exactly? I am stating canon. As I stated at the start (did anyone read that?) this was in response to someone else and I made another thread to avoid clogging up the other one with stuff that wasn't relevant.

      Did you read what we wrote? And what your stating is not canon. Canon is she was 17 when Henry was concieved and 18 when she gave birth to him. On that note, Henry's canon birthday is August 15. Any oddities with the dates is just because the writers suck at math. The canon is what I just stated.

      Comments in bold above.

      1. Except I am not making up ages. Stating Henry's birthday in one episode (which the writers shoved in for a Lost reference) and then actually having him turn 11 in a completely different month are two different things.

      Canon is Henry turned 11 in March/April. Maths puts Emma at 16 when she got pregnant. 

      Canon is Neal was 23 (at the youngest). We have canon proof of his age (the wanted poster).

      Canon is Neal, an adult, went after a teenage girl (a child). Look at the manips I've linked in here. 

      When did I mention 5-10 year olds? When I said "young girls" I meant teenagers.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      How exactly do you know it was "several months" later? I would take two months tops because we've never had any reason to believe otherwise.

      No. In "Child of the Moon", David makes a reference to the storyline from "Red-Handed" to "The Stable Boy", and says to Ruby, "A few months ago, everyone thought Mary Margaret was guilty of murder. She needed someone to believe in her. I didn't do that. I am not going to make the same mistake with you!" He says "a few months ago", not "two months ago". And, as I've already pointed out, while most of the timeline of the second half of Season 1 has been mapped out in the show, it was never stated how much time passed between "The Return" (where Kathryn recovers after her ordeal) and "The Stranger" (where MM starts teaching again), which allows for a timeline gap of an unknown length between these two episodes - and that fits perfectly with David's comment. So no, your comment about "two months tops because we've never had any reason to believe otherwise" is incorrect. There is more than enough reason to believe otherwise.

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    • Nightlily wrote:

      Aine1989 wrote:
      How exactly do you know it was "several months" later? I would take two months tops because we've never had any reason to believe otherwise.

      No. In "Child of the Moon", David makes a reference to the storyline from "Red-Handed" to "The Stable Boy", and says to Ruby, "A few months ago, everyone thought Mary Margaret was guilty of murder. She needed someone to believe in her. I didn't do that. I am not going to make the same mistake with you!" He says "a few months ago", not "two months ago". And, as I've already pointed out, while most of the timeline of the second half of Season 1 has been mapped out in the show, it was never stated how much time passed between "The Return" (where Kathryn recovers after her ordeal) and "The Stranger" (where MM starts teaching again), which allows for a timeline gap of an unknown length between these two episodes - and that fits perfectly with David's comment. So no, your comment about "two months tops because we've never had any reason to believe otherwise" is incorrect. There is more than enough reason to believe otherwise.

      What you have to think about is everyone's (esp Henry's) ages. In 3b he's 12. And for it to be anything over 2-3 months is just unrealistic in my view.

      So let's say it is several (shall we say 4) months after the end of season 1, which was February. That means Henry was 11 in June. Therefore born in June 2001 and conceived in September 2000. She's still 16.

      However, this contradicts a lot. The writers said Emma and Neal were together "for a summer" so it would make sense for them to be together in July/August. Also, does 2x14 look like a June/July day? No it doesn't. 

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    • May I point out that even if Emma was 17, a 23 year old man hooking up with a 17 year old girl is still freaking creepy? She was still underage, she was still a child. Not much difference between 16 and 17

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    • Aine1989 wrote:

      Canon is Henry turned 11 in March/April. Maths puts Emma at 16 when she got pregnant. 

      Canon is Neal was 23 (at the youngest). We have canon proof of his age (the wanted poster).

      No. Canon is Henry turned 11 in August. And Emma got pregnant when she was 17. How do we know that? Well, first of all, we have the title card from "There's No Place...", which states that they met in 2001. But there is further evidence. In "The Price of Gold", Emma specifically says to Ashley that she was eighteen when she gave birth to Henry (although we know she must have been rounding up her age with two months, since she was born in October). If Emma gave birth at eighteen, she must have become pregnant at seventeen.

      Emma: "Screw them. How old are you?"
      Ashley: "Nineteen."
      Emma: "I was eighteen."
      Ashley: When… When you had a kid?"
      Emma: "Yeah. I know what it's like."

      Her age is further confirmed in "Save Henry", where Regina has just adopted Henry (in "Pilot", she says that Henry was only three weeks old when she adopted him):

      Regina: "The child that you located for me in Phoenix... his mother was found in the woods outside of Storybrooke eighteen years ago."
      Mr. Gold: "What a starling coincidence."
      Regina: "Eighteen years ago?!"

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    • You are making up ages. The present day in season 2 was 2012, the flashback said 11 years ago (2001). Neal and Emma were still together in 2001, according to several flashbacks. Emma find out she was pregnant in prison in 2001. Flashback (3x22): Emma and Neal go on that "date" he mentioned in 2x06 and it says Portland, 2001. Emma was 17 when Henry was conceived. (and as NightLily said). So, we seem to mostly agree that Emma was 17.

      Flyers about Neal do not count as a valid source for his age. It also says he was born March 23 and in New Jersey, so why would we take any of that as fact?

      Using a photo manip as a concept is fine, but those depict 16 to 19 year old Abby Ross and 35to 39 year old MRJ, which isn't even close to even what any of us are discussing.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:

      So let's say it is several (shall we say 4) months after the end of season 1, which was February. That means Henry was 11 in June. Therefore born in June 2001 and conceived in September 2000. She's still 16.

      However, this contradicts a lot. The writers said Emma and Neal were together "for a summer" so it would make sense for them to be together in July/August. Also, does 2x14 look like a June/July day? No it doesn't. 

      Henry could simply have been rounding up his age. Or the writers screwed up the math. As for the summer thing: On the wiki, the number one canon is the show, the show and nothing but the show. It trumps anything the show creators say. This does not mean that the show's timeline is perfect; it simply means that if show creators say something that is contradicted by the show, the wiki goes with what the show says. The show clearly contradicts the summer thing, which means according to the canon, they were not together for a summer. The show creators are humans. They are perfectly capable of saying things that are incorrect.

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    • As for Neal's age: We don't actually know for sure whether he was 23/24 when he met Emma. All we have is the flyer, and while we've all, myself included, assumed that it is meant to represent his biological age, it's never been confirmed.

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    • Nightlily wrote:
      As for Neal's age: We don't actually know for sure whether he was 23/24 when he met Emma. All we have is the flyer, and while we've all, myself included, assumed that it is meant to represent his biological age, it's never been confirmed.

      Except we have never had any other indication of his age. As I've said before, he arrived in our world when he was biologically 15 then was able to:

      Learn perfect shoplifting techniques for the 21st century

      Know how to trick cops

      Know how to pick 21st century locks

      Learn to drive and hotwire a car (despite never seeing one before)

      Know about border control and the legalities that come with it

      Get and keep a job at a high end jewellery store then lose it "a few years" before meeting Emma

      Obtain at least one form of ID which enabled him to pass background checks for said job (and had the money to do this and have known to do all this)

      Learn to navigate a completely foreign world which was thousands of years ahead of what he grew up in. 

      Pull all of this off convincingly enough to fool everyone around him

      You really think he did all that in 5 years? Really 8 years is a minimum.

      If the wanted poster wasn't his DOB we'd have been told that

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    • Nightlily wrote:

      Aine1989 wrote:

      So let's say it is several (shall we say 4) months after the end of season 1, which was February. That means Henry was 11 in June. Therefore born in June 2001 and conceived in September 2000. She's still 16.

      However, this contradicts a lot. The writers said Emma and Neal were together "for a summer" so it would make sense for them to be together in July/August. Also, does 2x14 look like a June/July day? No it doesn't. 

      Henry could simply have been rounding up his age. Or the writers screwed up the math. As for the summer thing: On the wiki, the number one canon is the show, the show and nothing but the show. It trumps anything the show creators say. This does not mean that the show's timeline is perfect; it simply means that if show creators say something that is contradicted by the show, the wiki goes with what the show says. The show clearly contradicts the summer thing, which means according to the canon, they were not together for a summer. The show creators are humans. They are perfectly capable of saying things that are incorrect.

      1. Why would he round up his age?

      2. Yep the writers did screw up the maths; Emma and Neal met in 2000 not 2001. Clearly, the wiki (which isn't a totally reliable source) does not go with what the show says because Henry's birthday cannot possibly be in August. Unless it is, then Neal is not his father.

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    • Lol, the wanted poster isn't his date of birth because it's faked. He was born in a completely different world in the 1800s.

      Why do you think those skills take long to master? He doesn't need to know about border control becausethe flyer/government thinks he was born in New Jersey. The Average American has no idea how everything functions according to border control. Also, Bae was 14, not 15. All he needs is someone who knows what they are doing and he's set. Unless, we believe there's no thieves, people that drive, underground circuit, irresponsible employers in the LWM....

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Nightlily wrote:

      Aine1989 wrote:

      So let's say it is several (shall we say 4) months after the end of season 1, which was February. That means Henry was 11 in June. Therefore born in June 2001 and conceived in September 2000. She's still 16.

      However, this contradicts a lot. The writers said Emma and Neal were together "for a summer" so it would make sense for them to be together in July/August. Also, does 2x14 look like a June/July day? No it doesn't. 

      Henry could simply have been rounding up his age. Or the writers screwed up the math. As for the summer thing: On the wiki, the number one canon is the show, the show and nothing but the show. It trumps anything the show creators say. This does not mean that the show's timeline is perfect; it simply means that if show creators say something that is contradicted by the show, the wiki goes with what the show says. The show clearly contradicts the summer thing, which means according to the canon, they were not together for a summer. The show creators are humans. They are perfectly capable of saying things that are incorrect.
      1. Why would he round up his age?

      2. Yep the writers did screw up the maths; Emma and Neal met in 2000 not 2001. Clearly, the wiki (which isn't a totally reliable source) does not go with what the show says because Henry's birthday cannot possibly be in August. Unless it is, then Neal is not his father.

      1. Kids round up their age because they feel like it. Why would we question a kid? He must want to feel responsible and impress people with his age.

      2. The writers say in several episodes that they met in 2001. It just means that either Neal and Emma had a sort relationship and Emma birthed Henry early or Henry's birthday isn't August 15th. Technically, the show never said Henry's birthday is August 15th since the code we saw was 0815, but in season 1 the code was random numbers. (Although, Henry was born at 8:15 am.)

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Lol, the wanted poster isn't his date of birth because it's faked. He was born in a completely different world in the 1800s.

      Why do you think those skills take long to master? He doesn't need to know about border control becausethe flyer/government thinks he was born in New Jersey. The Average American has no idea how everything functions according to border control. Also, Bae was 14, not 15. All he needs is someone who knows what they are doing and he's set. Unless, we believe there's no thieves, people that drive, underground circuit, irresponsible employers in the LWM....

      I put Bae leaving Rumple at 15 bacause a year is enough time to get fed up with his dad's darkness and seek a way out.

      Why do I think that navigating a completely new world would take a bit longer than 3 years? He knew how to drive for pity's sake, and learned how to hotwire a car. Becoming a full blown criminal takes time

      Also, he had a job a few years before Emma, which he then had to presumablt get a background check for and needed ID, so he'd have had the knowlegde and money to get that done.

      And if his age was wrong on the poster we'd have been told. 

      Plus when he was reinventing himself he would have picked an age that was closest to his own. Most likely, he was picked up by social servies and obtained an ID close to his actual age. 

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Lol, the wanted poster isn't his date of birth because it's faked. He was born in a completely different world in the 1800s.

      Why do you think those skills take long to master? He doesn't need to know about border control becausethe flyer/government thinks he was born in New Jersey. The Average American has no idea how everything functions according to border control. Also, Bae was 14, not 15. All he needs is someone who knows what they are doing and he's set. Unless, we believe there's no thieves, people that drive, underground circuit, irresponsible employers in the LWM....

      I put Bae leaving Rumple at 15 bacause a year is enough time to get fed up with his dad's darkness and seek a way out.

      Why do I think that navigating a completely new world would take a bit longer than 3 years? He knew how to drive for pity's sake, and learned how to hotwire a car. Becoming a full blown criminal takes time

      Also, he had a job a few years before Emma, which he then had to presumablt get a background check for and needed ID, so he'd have had the knowlegde and money to get that done.

      And if his age was wrong on the poster we'd have been told. 

      Plus when he was reinventing himself he would have picked an age that was closest to his own. Most likely, he was picked up by social servies and obtained an ID close to his actual age. 

      The poster should be disregarded because it's fabricated. We don't have to get told that a flyer that has false information is fake. The name on it was fake. The birthplace was fake. The birth year is fake (because he was born in th 1800s), so I'd disregard it. The only way we could officially tell how old he is is when he escaped Neverland (which we don't know). So, I agree that it is close, but not exact. 

      He was a petty thief. Emma learned to be a thief from him in like a month or two, so there's that. I'd put him around 19 to 22.

        Preparing Editor Spell
    • Eskaver wrote:
      Aine1989 wrote:
      Nightlily wrote:

      Aine1989 wrote:

      So let's say it is several (shall we say 4) months after the end of season 1, which was February. That means Henry was 11 in June. Therefore born in June 2001 and conceived in September 2000. She's still 16.

      However, this contradicts a lot. The writers said Emma and Neal were together "for a summer" so it would make sense for them to be together in July/August. Also, does 2x14 look like a June/July day? No it doesn't. 

      Henry could simply have been rounding up his age. Or the writers screwed up the math. As for the summer thing: On the wiki, the number one canon is the show, the show and nothing but the show. It trumps anything the show creators say. This does not mean that the show's timeline is perfect; it simply means that if show creators say something that is contradicted by the show, the wiki goes with what the show says. The show clearly contradicts the summer thing, which means according to the canon, they were not together for a summer. The show creators are humans. They are perfectly capable of saying things that are incorrect.
      1. Why would he round up his age?

      2. Yep the writers did screw up the maths; Emma and Neal met in 2000 not 2001. Clearly, the wiki (which isn't a totally reliable source) does not go with what the show says because Henry's birthday cannot possibly be in August. Unless it is, then Neal is not his father.

      1. Kids round up their age because they feel like it. Why would we question a kid? He must want to feel responsible and impress people with his age.

      2. The writers say in several episodes that they met in 2001. It just means that either Neal and Emma had a sort relationship and Emma birthed Henry early or Henry's birthday isn't August 15th. Technically, the show never said Henry's birthday is August 15th since the code we saw was 0815, but in season 1 the code was random numbers. (Although, Henry was born at 8:15 am.)

      But it is never said he was. So you are basing your defense on  your headcanon.

      The writers say that but it is mathematically impossbile. Unless they met after she had Henry and Neal isn't really Henry's father. 

      Finally, what I've been saying;his birthday isn't August. It is April/March.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:

      But it is never said he was. So you are basing your defense on  your headcanon.

      The writers say that but it is mathematically impossbile. Unless they met after she had Henry and Neal isn't really Henry's father. 

      Finally, what I've been saying;his birthday isn't August. It is April/March.

      Headcanon? Not really,any more than the next person.

      I'd take it that they simply forgot that pregnancy tends to last 8 to 9 months. Take Aurora or Snow in 3b. That missing year ends up being more like "The Missing 8-9 months". I don't think Henry's birthday is in August, but it's never been established. Actually, I don't think we have yet to celebrate a birthday besides Emma on a confirmed date. Zelena's is April 15th, so there's that.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Yep the writers did screw up the maths; Emma and Neal met in 2000 not 2001. Clearly, the wiki (which isn't a totally reliable source) does not go with what the show says because Henry's birthday cannot possibly be in August. Unless it is, then Neal is not his father.

      We do go with what the show says, and the show says 2001. It is stated, clearly and directly, on-screen, in a title card in "There's No Place Like Home". And if they met in 2001, Henry would, naturally, have been born in August 2001, or later. The year 2001 is also backed up by the fact that Emma was 18 when she gave birth to Henry - something that is established in two' other episodes. Sorry, but with the sheer amount of clear and direct in-show information suggesting that they met in 2001, and very little in-show information suggesting that it was in 2000, we will continue to go with the year 2001.

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    • Ok, first I'll say it again (and this is what everyone has been saying).

      Emma Birthday is in october. She is 28 (Pilot)

      Henry's birthday is in August (Dark Swan)

      Henry is 10 years old when he first meets Emma (Pilot)

      So 10 years and 11 months prior to Emma's 28th birthday, Henry was conceived.

      Simple math, Emma was 17 at that time.

      How anyone fells about Neal and Emma's relationship is up to their own beliefs and opinions.

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    • Hmcooper4 wrote:
      Ok, first I'll say it again (and this is what everyone has been saying).

      Emma Birthday is in october. She is 28 (Pilot)

      Henry's birthday is in August (Dark Swan)

      Henry is 10 years old when he first meets Emma (Pilot)

      So 10 years and 11 months prior to Emma's 28th birthday, Henry was conceived.

      Simple math, Emma was 17 at that time.

      How anyone fells about Neal and Emma's relationship is up to their own beliefs and opinions.

      Except his birthday cannot be in August since he was 11 within 6 months of the pilot!!!

      Established age from earlier in the show takes priority over a thrown in Lost reference from season 5 that the wrtiers clearly didn't think through

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    • Nightlily wrote:

      Aine1989 wrote:
      Yep the writers did screw up the maths; Emma and Neal met in 2000 not 2001. Clearly, the wiki (which isn't a totally reliable source) does not go with what the show says because Henry's birthday cannot possibly be in August. Unless it is, then Neal is not his father.

      We do go with what the show says, and the show says 2001. It is stated, clearly and directly, on-screen, in a title card in "There's No Place Like Home". And if they met in 2001, Henry would, naturally, have been born in August 2001, or later. The year 2001 is also backed up by the fact that Emma was 18 when she gave birth to Henry - something that is established in two' other episodes. Sorry, but with the sheer amount of clear and direct in-show information suggesting that they met in 2001, and very little in-show information suggesting that it was in 2000, we will continue to go with the year 2001.

      The in show information suggesting 2000 is Henry's biological age. It's not like they haven't messed up with timestampts before.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      Except his birthday cannot be in August since he was 11 within 6 months of the pilot!!!

      Established age from earlier in the show takes priority over a thrown in Lost reference from season 5 that the wrtiers clearly didn't think through

      Except that the "established age" that you are referring to, was never actually established - I've stated, again, and again, that we don't actually know how much time passed between Valentine's Day 2012 in "Skin Deep" and mid season 2. And you already know (because it's been pointed out several times) that the date is not based on the Lost reference alone, but also on the year they met (2001) and Emma's age when she gave birth to Henry (eighteen).

      Oh, and about the three exclamation points: there is no need to shout, we read you perfectly well ;-)

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    • I really don't get the point now, this is just turning around and around the same. We all know that Henry is 11, cos of maths, but Aine wants to think something else so ^^

      "Established age from earlier in the show takes priority over a thrown in Lost reference from season 5" but this thing is wrong. An older info has not priority over a new one in the canon. Not how it works.

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    • Aine1989 wrote:
      The in show information suggesting 2000 is Henry's biological age. It's not like they haven't messed up with timestampts before.

      Then I really don't see the point in continuing this conversation, since you've already been presented with all the evidence to the contrary, again and again; yet you refuse to budge. Now, you are, of course, free to believe whatever you want, but this wiki views the year 2001 as well established and correct, and will continue to do so.

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    • Nightlily wrote:

      Aine1989 wrote:
      The in show information suggesting 2000 is Henry's biological age. It's not like they haven't messed up with timestampts before.

      Then I really don't see the point in continuing this conversation, since you've already been presented with all the evidence to the contrary, again and again; yet you refuse to budge. Now, you are, of course, free to believe whatever you want, but this wiki views the year 2001 as well established and correct, and will continue to do so.

      I have actually provided canon evidence several times and yet you have refused to listen to me and think that a throwaway Lost reference is more important than 6 seasons of Henry's established age.

      And regardless of 16 or 17, she was a child and Neal was an adult. That is sexual abuse. And just creepy. Emma was in no way mature enough to consent to sex, let alone sex with an adult (especially when you think about the power imbalance between the two)

      [here]

      [pictures! (This time with a 23 year old MRJ0]

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    • Can we close this thread please? Apparently, the only reason of it is just to trash on a character and a ship so...

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    • Lady Junky wrote:
      Can we close this thread please? Apparently, the only reason of it is just to trash on a character and a ship so...

      Actually it was made to avoid clogging up another thread.

      And as long as we can close the "CS is bad for Emma" one too 

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    • Will do. Closing thread as the answer was fullfilled, all else aside.

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