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  • Hello everyone! This thread will contain spoilers from the most recent arc of the show (5B).

    We are currently treating the River of Lost Souls and the Worse Place as one same thing, and we should really stop doing that. This is what Cruella said:

    Cruella: If it's cracked... Well, that's bad.
    Regina: Bad? They got pulled under to... wherever is worse than this place?
    Cruella: Yes. But no one who's anyone goes there anymore.

    That, and the fact that Auntie Em's gravestone cracked when she was sent into the River of Lost Souls, gave place to the logical assumption that the River of Lost Souls sends the souls to the world that lies beneath the Underworld.

    However, the aspects of the portrayal of the Worse Place and River of Lost Souls seems to indicate differently. Every time we see the river, the souls are still there. They're trapped in it, swimming forever. We even learnt that they can rise from the river with Hades gone. I think the idea that both places are connected is not far-fetched... But still speculative and I think it's even proven wrong by the very fact that we see the souls, they're still in the Underworld, just trapped underwater.

    Besides, Cruella and Regina's discussion wasn't very conclusive either... Because being trapped in the river definitely counts as "being pulled under to wherever is worse than this place". So, if we follow what we hear AND what we see, we can conclude that going to the river of lost souls also cracks the gravestone, but we know for a fact that the souls ARE NOT in a different world.

    So we can not list, for example, Auntie Em in the same list as Captain Silver as inhabitants/prisoners of the Worse Place, because that implies they're all in there, while Auntie Em is definitely not.


    What do you all thin? Share your opinion, whether you agree or disagree! And thank you for your time :)

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    • I think we could consider it the same place. I think the worse place just means you are trapped in the Underworld without being able to move on. Both the fire pit (probably Tartarus) and the River of Lost Souls do that. Of course, it's possible that it is all a lie, and that Arthur will be able to repair the broken kingdom and allow all souls to move on to a better place. Maybe just have the list split into Worse Place (Fire) and Worse Place (Water).

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    • I think the worse place might actually be a separate place but many things tend to counteract that point.

      1. Cracked Headstones for those tossed into the river of Souls implies that this fate worse than death is someplace worse.

      2. The soul counter Clock doesn't tick when souls go "downstairs" and Hades doesn't seem phased by them going to the worse place.

      So, I would say that Acheron and the fire pit are both the known "Worse Place).

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    • Except we know that the worse place is actually a different world, and the Acheron is within the Underworld... So while it is technically a worse place than Underbrooke, it is not THE worse place. xD

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    • Killian Jones wrote:
      Except we know that the worse place is actually a different world, and the Acheron is within the Underworld... So while it is technically a worse place than Underbrooke, it is not THE worse place. xD

      We don't actually know that the Worse Place is a different world, that was an assumption by people on this wiki.

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    • Well, you know my opinion on the topic. I'll stick to what A&E told us, there is only one Worse Place. So I think we should keep the situation, or maybe making it clearer.

      I personally think your idea is trying to play with the dialogue, but - again it is my personnal opinion - it is very clear. Cruella says clearly: "anyone goes there anymore." I don't think she would use "there" if there was more than one worse place. Her words are clear enough to me.

      Beginning from this point, the rest is simple. If we follow the dialogue, if a tumb is cracked then the soul has been sent to the Worse Place. It happened with Auntie Em, her tumb was cracked. To me, it is enough to say that - somehow - the Acheron is definitely link/a part of that Worse Place. So, all the others souls who went there too. Moreover, we can use the recent events from 521 for this idea. Even if the souls are still in the river, they are clearly different from what they look in the Underworld. Look at that skeleton (here). He is different from Arthur or Hook, so to me, it is also a proof that what is in the Acheron is different from what is in the Underworld. So, the worse place.

      Yes, the Acheron's source is in the Underworld. But, at multiple times in the arc, everyone keeps saying that no one must touch the river. So clearly, it is different from the rest of the Underworld. It can appears there, without being entirely a part of it.

      Sure, it looks different from the Fiery Cave. But it is a world. A world for dead. As all the others worlds we saw in the show from now, we have different places, different entrances and different looks of the world.

      And again, that interview from A&E. Even if they are confusing sometimes, I think they know their show. This is what they say: "The Underworld is kind of a weigh station between two other worlds." (http://tvline.com/2016/02/29/once-upon-a-time-season-5b-preview-underworld-emma-hook-hades/) These worlds are Mount Olympus, and the Worse Place. So, we know for sure there is only one worse place.

      Again, if we add this info with Cruella's dialogue and Auntie Em's, we have clearly enough of evidence to say that the souls in the Acheron are in this Worse Place. Again, that's not because it looks different that it is not the same. Arendelle looks different from Agrabah, it is still the FTL.

      Yes, the situation is confusing, yes we could try to make it clearer. But, with the interview and the evidences from the show, I deeply think it would be a huge mistake to pretend that the souls in the Acheron are not in the Worse Place, because we have a lot of evidences pointing in that way.

      One last thing, we can rationalize everything about the Worse Place. To me, we can't say because they are in the river, they are not in the Worse Place. Clearly, we don't have all possible info about this place. But again, with what we know, we have more than enough of evidences to prove that what is in the Acheron is in the Worse Place.

      But of course, we can be opened to make it clearer on our pages :)


      For lazy people, my opinion is basically: Acheron + Fiery Cave = Worse Place xD

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:

      Killian Jones wrote:
      Except we know that the worse place is actually a different world, and the Acheron is within the Underworld... So while it is technically a worse place than Underbrooke, it is not THE worse place. xD

      We don't actually know that the Worse Place is a different world, that was an assumption by people on this wiki.

      "The Underworld is kind of a weigh station between two other worlds. Hades has a brother that’s up in Mount Olympus, and then there’s a place “downstairs” that’s even worse."

      You're wrong. That is not an assumption made on the wiki. However, let me use this to illustrate why we need to stop listing the Lost Souls as prisoners of the Worse Place (World). We're giving the impression that our assumption is a fact. It is as simple as that.

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    • Killian Jones wrote:

      CoolDudeAl wrote:

      Killian Jones wrote:
      Except we know that the worse place is actually a different world, and the Acheron is within the Underworld... So while it is technically a worse place than Underbrooke, it is not THE worse place. xD
      We don't actually know that the Worse Place is a different world, that was an assumption by people on this wiki.
      "The Underworld is kind of a weigh station between two other worlds. Hades has a brother that’s up in Mount Olympus, and then there’s a place “downstairs” that’s even worse."

      You're wrong. That is not an assumption made on the wiki. However, let me use this to illustrate why we need to stop listing the Lost Souls as prisoners of the Worse Place (World). We're giving the impression that our assumption is a fact. It is as simple as that.

      Well okay, they did say that, I forgot. But I still agree with Lady that the Fire Pit and the River of Lost Souls are both part of the Worst Place. The two worlds (Underworld and Worse Place) must exist in a symbiotic relationship or something.

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    • I think based on what Cruella said involving the tombstone cracking and taking them to the Worst Place should somehow be alluded. Like Aunt Em where her tombstone had already cracked, so we know she's in the Worst Place, but characters like Pan, Milah etc, we don't entirely know whether they are in the Worst Place or still in the Underworld (aka the River of Lost Souls). Mainly, we don't know what happens after the characters are send to the River of Lost Souls (RoLS for short) but somehow, after Aunt Em ends up there, she ends up in the Worst Place due to the tombstone thing. The rest is still ambigious cause there could b somesort of punishment or consequences while they are in the RoLS and later they could have been send to the Worst Place, but we'll never know that. For now, it can only be known that Blacktooth (i think that's the guy Cora send to the Worst Place), Captain Silver and Aunt Em is in the Worst Place while Milah, Pan, Gaston is in the RoLS in the Underworld (that is until somehow we can get confirmation that they are really in the Worst Place as souls are seen roaming freely in the river)

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    • As evidenced by this thread, there is an argument either way as to whether Acheron and the Fiery Pit are both the worse place.

      From what we were told, there are 3 states for the headstones. Upright means that they are in the UW with unfinished business. Tipped over means that they moved on to the better place. Cracked means they moved on to the worse place. We never saw Milah's tombstone, nor Gaston's, nor James'. The only one we saw was Auntie Em's, and it was cracked.

      Cracked headstone means in worse place. and the last we saw of Aunt Em, she was a puddle of water that got poured into the Acheron (and according to Hades was actually converted to water from Acheron). we don't see her in the fire pit. So it is, I believe, safe to assume that the River is the worse place.

      That leaves the question of the Fire Pit. We have not seen the tombstones of any of the people cast into the pit (basically Captain Silver and Blacktooth). So we have no conclusive evidence that the Fire Pit is actually the worse place. Just an assumption.

      Now, here is where I have the real problem. Hades said, in Souls of the Departed, that the clock ticks every time a soul moves on. Now, I would personally equivolate moving to the worse place as moving on, just as much as moving to the better place. Yet the clock has only ticked for the souls that we watched move to the better place. so maybe neither the Acheron nor the Pit are the worse place.  It's possible that Cruella lied, or just didn't understand how the system works. 

      Which means that it is conceivable (You keep using that word. I do not think ot means what you think it means) that both acheron and the pit are still a part of the UW. Special parts reserved for the greatest torture. while going to the worst place would involve actually crossing realms (like the better place).

      Just my opinion.

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    • I think the "Worse Place" is more of just a general statement that you've just ended up in a worse place than the Underworld. It doesn't necessarily mean one realm in particular, but represents whatever awful fate one is condemned to that doesn't involve moving up to Olympus, whether it be thrown in a pit of fire or trapped in the river.

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    • Has no one ever heard the phrase: a fate worse than death. Obviously both these places are both fates worse than death but that doesn't mean that both are THE Worse Place. I think we should name the fire pit "Worse Place" and the river "Acheron". That's my opinion

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    • We don't exactly know how the Worse Place looks like, for what we know, beneath the fire in the fiery cave there could be the River of Lost Souls.

      And also, in the Acheron "ruins" there is the quote "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here" and this is a reference to Dante's Hell.

      But I think we should consider that Acheron is part of the Worse Place but still keeping them separated.

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    • Actually, Aunt Em's tombstone was cracked before Hades poured her soul into the river.

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    • Good point. But if I recall the sequence of events, whatever Hades did to Em turned her into water from the river of Lost Souls, so she would have been condemned at that point. Hades pouring what was left of her into the river was more just putting the water back where it belonged.

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    • "But I think we should consider that Acheron is part of the Worse Place but still keeping them separated."

      This.  I'm pretty damn sure all the rivers flow FROM the Worse Place to the Underworld, but they are not interchangable.  The souls in Acheron don't travel to the Worse Place, they just float in the river endlessly.  Also, there is no way out from the Worse Place, whereas now we have souls popping out of Acheron since it was Hades keeping them prisoner there and not any higher force.

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    • VillainousTroper wrote:
      "But I think we should consider that Acheron is part of the Worse Place but still keeping them separated."

      This.  I'm pretty damn sure all the rivers flow FROM the Worse Place to the Underworld, but they are not interchangable.  The souls in Acheron don't travel to the Worse Place, they just float in the river endlessly.  Also, there is no way out from the Worse Place, whereas now we have souls popping out of Acheron since it was Hades keeping them prisoner there and not any higher force.

      But the souls were transformed into something evil and undead looking, so it does imply that the water has damned them to a worse place.

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    • The souls were transformed, true. But, for the sake of argument, if a soul can emerge from the water, would it be possible, by means of magic, to restore that soul to it's former state of brokenness? It still had unfinished business.

      My personal take on the fiery pit and the river is that they are both still part of the UW, and neither are part of the worse place. reasoning, you ask? Hades motivation (when we first met him, anyway) was to keep the souls from moving on.  and in multiple cases, going to the worse place was still referenced as Moving On. So, by that reasoning, a soul moving on to the worse place would still have the soul leave the UW.  and the clock ticks everytime a soul leaves, yet the clock did not tick when Milah, Gaston, Aunt Em, James, nor Pan went to the river. The clock did not tick for Silver or Blacktooth going to the fire pit. It did tick for all the souls we saw move on to the better place.

      My opinion is that we never saw a soul move on to THE worse place. they only went to worse places in the UW, of which Acheron and the Pit are but 2 of probably many.

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    • Yep the Worse Place is definatly the Hell and Muspheliem of Once Upon A Time Univeres.

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    • I wish they'd do a novel or graphic novel detailing how Arthur deals with the Broken Kingdom and hopefully saves good souls (Like Aunt Em) from the Acheron.  That episode upset me so much with how it not only had her as being dead, but then damned her for eternity as far as we saw.

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    • A Spy in the Mirror
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