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Zelena Impersonating Marian... problems or plot holes

  • Ok, there have been comments in several threads relating to the news of Zelena impersonating Marian, and why there are problems reconciling events since the beginning of the season.

    I am starting this thread as a repository for discussion on what plot holes people think there are, or why it may not be a plot hole.  In other words, open debate.

    I'll start with one observation.  People have been questioning that If Zelena was Marian, why did she not take certain magical actions to protect herself.  For example, when Marshmallow stomped through the woods and almost stomped her flat, why didn't "Marian" just poof out of the way (or fireblast the snowman). I've given that one some thought, and it occurs to me that one of the effects of a Glamour spell is it prevents the user from using magic. Back in Season 1 (or was it 2), when Regina had Rumple cast the glamour spell, he reminded Regina that she would not be capable of using Magic while in the glamoured form. I think that is also what prevented Zelena from taking magical action. And she was not ready to drop her disguise yet, (for fear that someone might see her), so she was, at that moment in time, helpless.

    Just a thought.

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    • I agree. That will be like one of the many little limits. When Zelena did her decoy/illusion spell. She had to break it to do a fireball. I think that people can't do magic in a glamour, except break it (But Cora did magic when she was glamoured to look like Regina) So, if we ignore that, everyone else including Rumple follows this rule.

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    • I've also seen a lot of "Robin should know that's not his wife!" complaints, if anyone wants to comment on that.

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    • Utter solitude wrote: I've also seen a lot of "Robin should know that's not his wife!" complaints, if anyone wants to comment on that.

      Yeah, I mean how would Zelena know how Marian acts or who her child is.

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    • To me, I just kind of chalk it up to him not seeing her for so long. A lot happened in that time. Any differences in her behavior Robin can chalk up to the ordeal or gloss over in the joy of having her back, ya know?

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    • Utter solitude wrote: To me, I just kind of chalk it up to him not seeing her for so long. A lot happened in that time. Any differences in her behavior Robin can chalk up to the ordeal or gloss over in the joy of having her back, ya know?

      But how would Zelena know how to act as Marian?

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      I agree. That will be like one of the many little limits. When Zelena did her decoy/illusion spell. She had to break it to do a fireball. I think that people can't do magic in a glamour, except break it (But Cora did magic when she was glamoured to look like Regina) So, if we ignore that, everyone else including Rumple follows this rule.

      Maybe it is because Regina and Zelena are both glamoured as non-magical users. Cora was able to shrink down to fairy size in 2x15's flasback as she was the Blue Fairy

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      Utter solitude wrote: To me, I just kind of chalk it up to him not seeing her for so long. A lot happened in that time. Any differences in her behavior Robin can chalk up to the ordeal or gloss over in the joy of having her back, ya know?

      But how would Zelena know how to act as Marian?

      Who knows. Really, she could have chalked up any "wrong" moves to the ordeal. its not something i wonder about.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:

      Utter solitude wrote: To me, I just kind of chalk it up to him not seeing her for so long. A lot happened in that time. Any differences in her behavior Robin can chalk up to the ordeal or gloss over in the joy of having her back, ya know?

      But how would Zelena know how to act as Marian?
      Who knows. Really, she could have chalked up any "wrong" moves to the ordeal. its not something i wonder about.

      Or she could use moves like she did the one time on Robin. (Please don't hold me to the quotes, they are paraphrased from what I remember).

      Robin: You remember what you told me when I became a thief again?

      Marian/Zelena: Yes, But I'd like to hear you say it.

      Or the situation earlier in the episode when Robin asked a similar question, and M/Z replied "I've said quite a lot of things". 

      Both answers are actually non-commital, and leave it open for Robin to finish his thought, putting the onus on Robin to remember, then Zelena just responding to the situation.

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    • The writers have shown us her charade is not flawless. Robin has been perplexed a couple of times, and "Marlena" heself told Gold that something in their emotive connection isn't quite working. Besides, most of her time around other people who could have known her beside her family, she spent frozen. Add in the presumable stress for the aftermath of the spell, her moving to a land completely different from her native one and of which she does not even have fake cursed memories, and it should be no surprise to Robin that she's not quite herself "yet".

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    • ^^^^Completely agree.

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    • GothicNarcissus wrote:
      The writers have shown us her charade is not flawless. Robin has been perplexed a couple of times, and "Marlena" heself told Gold that something in their emotive connection isn't quite working. Besides, most of her time around other people who could have known her beside her family, she spent frozen. Add in the presumable stress for the aftermath of the spell, her moving to a land completely different from her native one and of which she does not even have fake cursed memories, and it should be no surprise to Robin that she's not quite herself "yet".


      I think it is prolly one of the best explanation I read on the wiki :D

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    • Besides, when Marian died / disappeared / actually died, Roland must have been what, no older than two? So, while he remembered her as his mom, I don't think he could recall what she acted like much in detail.

      As for how she even knew about Robin and Roland, she sent Gold after them to retrive Regina's heart, and when she came back from the past it was them who first approached her, so no big wonder. It's trickier to wonder how she knew Marian was Robin's wife, but let's assume she spied on him from Oz after he stole from her. She must have remembered once she found out Robin was dating Regina in Storybrooke, and as she said, when Emma rescued her, inspiration struck!

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    • what about the fact that when zelena was disgised as marian regina took out her heart but when hook tried he got blasted to the wall?

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    • Rwo

      Blood magic interference maybe? Or maybe Zelena found a way once she woke up to protect her heart somehow, either before leaving or once in New York. Walsh had heart-healing potions in his shop, remember?

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    • Whatthebelle wrote:
      what about the fact that when zelena was disgised as marian regina took out her heart but when hook tried he got blasted to the wall?

      Right as it is still Regina's magic whether it was on Hook's hook or Regina herself. It's just a plot hole. Zelena herself said she had protected her heart ages ago, which can't be true.

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    • Rwo

      Eskaver wrote:

      Whatthebelle wrote:
      what about the fact that when zelena was disgised as marian regina took out her heart but when hook tried he got blasted to the wall?

      Right as it is still Regina's magic whether it was on Hook's hook or Regina herself. It's just a plot hole. Zelena herself said she had protected her heart ages ago, which can't be true.

      Are potions like Hook's submitted to the rules applying to their creator's? Otherwise, I still think Regina could rip Zelena's heart out despite of its protection thanks to their blood magic connection. Either that or the glamour spell then cancelled the protection.

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    • Rwo wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:

      Whatthebelle wrote:
      what about the fact that when zelena was disgised as marian regina took out her heart but when hook tried he got blasted to the wall?
      Right as it is still Regina's magic whether it was on Hook's hook or Regina herself. It's just a plot hole. Zelena herself said she had protected her heart ages ago, which can't be true.

      Are potions like Hook's submitted to the rules applying to their creator's? Otherwise, I still think Regina could rip Zelena's heart out despite of its protection thanks to their blood magic connection. Either that or the glamour spell then cancelled the protection.

      The hook was enchanted by Regina's magic and Hook specifically says so twice. Regina's magic is the one to take Zelena's heart out and thus it is a plot hole. 

      I theorized that glamour spells doesn't allow you to use other magic, but as we saw with Cora it doesn't. And Zelena is more powerful than Cora.

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    • Rwo

      Zelena also used magic to curse Hook while she was in disguise as Ariel.

      However, Regina had enchanted Hook's hook to rip only one heart out, which he did with Aurora's. When he tried to rip Zelena's, it was thanks to a potion of Regina's, not directly Regina's magic.

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    • Rwo wrote:
      Zelena also used magic to curse Hook while she was in disguise as Ariel.

      However, Regina had enchanted Hook's hook to rip only one heart out, which he did with Aurora's. When he tried to rip Zelena's, it was thanks to a potion of Regina's, not directly Regina's magic.

      It was Regina's magic. That is why Hook was able to take the cuff off of Zelena...at least to my interpretation.

      It could simply be generic magic, but why would Zelena knowingly face her sister who can go through her protection spell?

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    • Rwo
      Eskaver wrote:It was Regina's magic. That is why Hook was able to take the cuff off of Zelena...at least to my interpretation.

      So what, she like sweat her magic out and kept it in a bottle? That's gross lol.

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    • Rwo wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:It was Regina's magic. That is why Hook was able to take the cuff off of Zelena...at least to my interpretation.

      So what, she like sweat her magic out and kept it in a bottle? That's gross lol.

      Haha, well, when they tend to make potions they enchant it with their magic....unless she found ingredients that enables people to rip out hearts..............which would be odd.

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    • Rwo

      Eskaver wrote:

      Rwo wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:It was Regina's magic. That is why Hook was able to take the cuff off of Zelena...at least to my interpretation.

      So what, she like sweat her magic out and kept it in a bottle? That's gross lol.

      Haha, well, when they tend to make potions they enchant it with their magic....unless she found ingredients that enables people to rip out hearts..............which would be odd.

      You mean, like odder than using owl feathers to find somebody? X)

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    • Rwo wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:

      Rwo wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:It was Regina's magic. That is why Hook was able to take the cuff off of Zelena...at least to my interpretation.
      So what, she like sweat her magic out and kept it in a bottle? That's gross lol.
      Haha, well, when they tend to make potions they enchant it with their magic....unless she found ingredients that enables people to rip out hearts..............which would be odd.

      You mean, like odder than using owl feathers to find somebody? X)

      But that made sense in a way. It's a locator spell, not giving the person any personal power. 

      Rub stuff together and doing a locator spell is much more expected than rub your hands in this and now you can rip out hearts. 

      Anyhow, the Zelena as Marian wasn't properly planned as there were instances like the Snow monster battle where "Marian" would have died because she couldn't defend herself. There's no reason why Zelena wouldn't resort to magic.

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    • Eskaver wrote:
      Rwo wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:


      Rwo wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:It was Regina's magic. That is why Hook was able to take the cuff off of Zelena...at least to my interpretation.
      So what, she like sweat her magic out and kept it in a bottle? That's gross lol.
      Haha, well, when they tend to make potions they enchant it with their magic....unless she found ingredients that enables people to rip out hearts..............which would be odd.
      You mean, like odder than using owl feathers to find somebody? X)
      But that made sense in a way. It's a locator spell, not giving the person any personal power. 

      Rub stuff together and doing a locator spell is much more expected than rub your hands in this and now you can rip out hearts. 

      Anyhow, the Zelena as Marian wasn't properly planned as there were instances like the Snow monster battle where "Marian" would have died because she couldn't defend herself. There's no reason why Zelena wouldn't resort to magic.

      While it was Regina's magic ok Hook's hook her blood was not on the hook.  For blood magic the person who is blood related or a drop of their blood must be present to break it, not just something they enchated

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    • Frulna wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:
      Rwo wrote:

      Eskaver wrote:



      Rwo wrote:
      Eskaver wrote:It was Regina's magic. That is why Hook was able to take the cuff off of Zelena...at least to my interpretation.
      So what, she like sweat her magic out and kept it in a bottle? That's gross lol.
      Haha, well, when they tend to make potions they enchant it with their magic....unless she found ingredients that enables people to rip out hearts..............which would be odd.
      You mean, like odder than using owl feathers to find somebody? X)
      But that made sense in a way. It's a locator spell, not giving the person any personal power. 

      Rub stuff together and doing a locator spell is much more expected than rub your hands in this and now you can rip out hearts. 

      Anyhow, the Zelena as Marian wasn't properly planned as there were instances like the Snow monster battle where "Marian" would have died because she couldn't defend herself. There's no reason why Zelena wouldn't resort to magic.

      While it was Regina's magic ok Hook's hook her blood was not on the hook.  For blood magic the person who is blood related or a drop of their blood must be present to break it, not just something they enchated

      Right...but does Regina's hand have to be bloody to rip Zelena's heart out?

      Hint: Don't answer that because the mechanics are fine, but can easily be over-analyzed by people like me. Plus, it wouldn't make sense for Zelena to blood magic-protect her heart when she seeks vengence against her sister (and mother).

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    • There seems to be some misunderstanding going on about the Glamour / Shapeshifting Spell.

      From S2x20 The Evil Queen;

      "Regina: Teach me my mother's shape-shifting spell. Allow me to hide. 

      Rumplestiltskin: It took your mother months to learn that. You? Well, in a week, you'll be able to, uh, change your hair? Highlights? Maybe. 

      Regina: If I can't do the spell, you can. Put it on me. 

      Rumplestiltskin: If I do, you won't control it. And you won't have any magic while the spell is working."

      You can use magic if you cast the Shapeshifting spell, such as Cora and Zelena do. However, having it cast on you means no using magic, not even the break to the Glamour. (Which makes you wonder why it isn't used to subdue magic users...could that be how Pan's cuff works?) 

      This bit is just logical extrapolation; the Oz Clover casts the Glamour on the wearer, hence the wearer can't use magic whilst it's active. Also, the Clover works indefinately and even in the World Without Magic, which the Shapeshifting spell can't do. If you want to cover why Marian had her heart ripped out whilst Zelena enchanted her heart to prevent that, you could say the Clover has complete magic negation, so while Zelena was using the Clover her heart enchantment couldn't work.

      Adam stated in an interview that the Clover casts a 'perfect' Glamour that would make a person's body, heart, soul etc look exactly like what they're mimicking, regardless of what device or magic was used to observe. However, the Shapeshifting spell depends on the caster's skill, and can be detected by someone knowledgable enough - such as Rumpelstiltskin (would has spotted fakes and Glamours before).

      Which explains why Zelena would choose to use an Oz Clover, but not how she got hold of a Clover pendant in the past. It's not like she sucked it through the portal while she was a green smoke cloud. Was she even wearing it in the cell? Did she summon it from Oz?

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    • Parade Bunting wrote:
      There seems to be some misunderstanding going on about the Glamour / Shapeshifting Spell.

      From S2x20 The Evil Queen;

      "Regina: Teach me my mother's shape-shifting spell. Allow me to hide. 

      Rumplestiltskin: It took your mother months to learn that. You? Well, in a week, you'll be able to, uh, change your hair? Highlights? Maybe. 

      Regina: If I can't do the spell, you can. Put it on me. 

      Rumplestiltskin: If I do, you won't control it. And you won't have any magic while the spell is working."

      You can use magic if you cast the Shapeshifting spell, such as Cora and Zelena do. However, having it cast on you means no using magic, not even the break to the Glamour. (Which makes you wonder why it isn't used to subdue magic users...) 

      This bit is just logical extrapolation; the Oz Clover casts the Glamour on the wearer, hence the wearer can't use magic whilst it's active. Also, the Clover works indefinately and even in the World Without Magic, which the Shapeshifting spell can't do. If you want to cover why Marian had her heart ripped out whilst Zelena enchanted her heart to prevent that, you could say the Clover has complete magic negation, so while Zelena was using the Clover her heart enchantment couldn't work.

      Adam stated in an interview that the Clover casts a 'perfect' Glamour that would make a person's body, heart, soul etc look exactly like what they're mimicking, regardless of what device or magic was used to observe. However, the Shapeshifting spell depends on the caster's skill, and can be detected by someone knowledgable enough - such as Rumpelstiltskin (would has spotted fakes and Glamours before).

      Which explains why Zelena would choose to use an Oz Clover, but not how she got hold of a Clover pendant in the past. It's not like she sucked it through the portal while she was a green smoke cloud. Was she even wearing it in the cell? Did she summon it from Oz?

      Well, she could have had it,  or found Robin's pendant that he stole from her.

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    • Eskaver wrote:

      Well, she could have had it,  or found Robin's pendant that he stole from her.

      Taking Robin's stolen Clover works for me. Just thinking of the timeline, and that could fit. Robin's trip to Oz must have been at least 5 years before the curse, as Rolan's 4 when the curse was cast. The whole Snow & Charming meeting to Regina casting the curse story took, say, 2/3 years. Seem likely that Robin had the Oz Clover when Snow & Charming first met.

      (It would also feed into the idea that Zelena knew who Robin and Marian were before discovering he was Regina TL, as she spied on the man who stole from her with her Omniscope or whatever).

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    • It's interesting to note that Zelena had two spells cast on her: the Clover's glamour spell and Ingrid's freezing spell. We don't know yet whether Zelena was actually affected by the freezing spell the first time or just faked it like she did the second time, but if she were then they could have added up. Or maybe Ingrid's spell could have "suspended" (or "frozen", or "hybernated", as you prefer) Zelena's heart-protecting spell on its own. I mean, Ingrid's freezing spells were definitely serious business, given how they suspended the life cycles of the whole Arendelle for a good thirty years even after Ingrid herself had left the land.

      So yeah, it's reasonable to think there was a lot of powerful magic interfering back then.

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    • Well, it would be interesting if they actually did a little magical lesson episode because we as fans have to do the heavylifting of guessing while all they seem to do is handwave it.

      I think that Zelena casted the glamour spell on herself (maybe). They have officially changed CGI for it so that glamours are smokeless, but they used both in the episode making it appear that Zelena glamoured herself and had the pendant as backup (in case of emergencies or any suspicion).

      We don't know how magic works fully, but I'm guessing that Ingrid's magic interfered with Zelena's or she was too weak to hold up anything.......but I'm not sure Zelena would just let herself die like that. She couldn't have faked it because she didn't have anytime to fake it.

      I think the Arendelle big freeze is akin to the other Immobolization spell that the others use that "freezes you" while not actually killing you. THe frozen heart curse actualy turns you to ice and kills you.

      All I do know is that Zelena is a strong witch with a specialty in illusions (it would seem).

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    • As an object and not personal magic, the pendant could work in the Land Without Magic, keeping the glamour active, while it was Zelena's power to do it in Storybrooke.

      She didn't use her magic against the marshmallow because she didn't whant to blow up her cover. It's not like she was a second from being killed when Regina arrived, there was time enough for her to attack, but she didn't get the chance. 

      About the heart: Rumble and Pan stated that they could take her heart because of their greater experience in magic, so we know it's not impossible.

      I actually think it was Zelena to allow Regina to reap her heart. She escaped death once, using her magic, kept inside her pendant, as an anchor for her spirit and resurrecting herself. 

      My theory is that, being already trapped by the curse and frozen, Zelena allowed Regina to take her heart, breaking through her protection spell, to have, once again something of hers to use and bring herself back from the dead.

      There could be two thing pointing in this direction:

      1 Regina struggled in taking the heart, it could be because of the ice, but it could also be the protection spell on it to slow down the process, or even a combination of the two.

      2 Zelena knew Hades long before officially meeting Regina, and they had history, so maybe she researched about him and discovered ways to use magic as a way to cheat death.

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    • 77.88.47.48
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