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  • Bot of Solitude
    Bot of Solitude closed this thread because:
    20:54, December 26, 2017

    Well, I think we really need to discuss about this point. A lot of persons changed the affiliation of the characters according to their opinion; which begin to be a bit tiring :P

    So yeah, it is time to discuss. I think, we have three affiliations: Hero, Neutral and Villain. Some characters are not problematic: Emma, Snow and Charming are Heroes; Cora, Peter Pan and Zelena are Villains. We're ok about that.

    But there are some characters really debatable. I talk about Regina, Rumple, Hook; etc... Everyone has his own point of view about this question, and we can't continue to change it all the time.

    That's why I ask your opinion :)

    Mine is, for these characters, we just put Neutral: they did a lot of good things recently, but during their whole life they were villains. That's why I think Neutral is the best option. What do you think about that? :)

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    • At this point in time, I would personally say he is classified as a hero, despite his past villainous self. If something drastic where to happen and say he did do something bad, then I would say neutral, but with his growing relationship with Emma, she is shaping him up to be a better person and I can't see him doing something evil, but Adam and Eddy are always full of surprises. I can see what your sayings though :) But after being called a hero in the last episode by a hero based character, not much can be argued until something does go wrong. That applies to all characters. I'm not just sticking up for Hook :)

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    • I say we classify the characters' affiliation based on their most current deeds, and not the bad things they had in the long ago past. I really think it's not fair to hold Regina's past cruel acts against her, and say she's still evil because she hasn't made up for those actions when Rumplestiltskin/Mr. Gold hasn't done the same either.

      The Neutral affiliation, in the past, has been used for characters whose affinity is highly debated, or that their actions are neither good or bad. I don't really see the point of putting down people who used to be villains as neutrals. That's almost like saying those people were villains their whole lives so they can never really change to be good.

      I believe Regina and Hook have turned over new leaves. So they could be classified as heroes. Mr. Gold, however, I see is still struggling. As much as I perceive he was made to do those things by Zelena's command, he still has issues with letting go of his vengeance and not lying to Belle. I'd put him under Neutral, maybe.

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    • I think Hook and Regina should now be Heroes since their most recent actions have been with good intentions. Mr. Gold should be Neutral because he hasn't changed as much as the other characters. Plus, he has always swapped from being on the hero's side to being on the villain's side throughout his entire life and he hasn't settled on one side now like Regina and Hook.

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    • Maybe you could add another category? Ever-changing, inconsistent or something else.

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    • In my opinion, Hook and Regina's recent actions classify them as heroes, even with their dark past they seem to have changed. Maybe in the future they will change back (Regina didn't looked very happy with Marian's arrival and Elsa can change everything), so we'll have to see, but right now I think that they are heroes. For Rumple I think he's a neutral because even with Neal and Belle I still think he has some darkness inside him and that he is completely unpredictable.

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    • I suggest REMOVING ALL THE AFFILIATION PARAMETERS AND ICONS.

      After all, this is what Once Upon a Time is all about: turning iconic characters into actual people from the real world. The original Evil Queen was 100% evil. There wasn't a spot of light in her heart. Snow White was all the opposite, 100% nice and good. I think OUaT is all about second chances and EVIL BEING MADE, NOT BORN.

      So, I think it's not fair for us as a site dedicated to Once Upon a Time to label its characters as either Good, Neutral or Evil, when all the show does is prove repeatedly that no one is really good or evil, but just people whose personality was shaped and molded by stuff that happened to them in the past.

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    • Killian Jones wrote: I suggest REMOVING ALL THE AFFILIATION PARAMETERS AND ICONS.

      After all, this is what Once Upon a Time is all about: turning iconic characters into actual people from the real world. The original Evil Queen was 100% evil. There wasn't a spot of light in her heart. Snow White was all the opposite, 100% nice and good. I think OUaT is all about second chances and EVIL BEING MADE, NOT BORN.

      So, I think it's not fair for us as a site dedicated to Once Upon a Time to label its characters as either Good, Neutral or Evil, when all the show does is prove repeatedly that no one is really good or evil, but just people whose personality was shaped and molded by stuff that happened to them in the past.

      I think that's a good idea. Talk to the other admins and hopefully they'll agree (I'm just guessing this is something the admins must discuss.)

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    • WinterWoodsGal wrote:

      Killian Jones wrote: I suggest REMOVING ALL THE AFFILIATION PARAMETERS AND ICONS.

      After all, this is what Once Upon a Time is all about: turning iconic characters into actual people from the real world. The original Evil Queen was 100% evil. There wasn't a spot of light in her heart. Snow White was all the opposite, 100% nice and good. I think OUaT is all about second chances and EVIL BEING MADE, NOT BORN.

      So, I think it's not fair for us as a site dedicated to Once Upon a Time to label its characters as either Good, Neutral or Evil, when all the show does is prove repeatedly that no one is really good or evil, but just people whose personality was shaped and molded by stuff that happened to them in the past.

      I think that's a good idea. Talk to the other admins and hopefully they'll agree (I'm just guessing this is something the admins must discuss.)

      I'm not an admin, but I do agree with this


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    • This is not an admin only kind of thing. Everything is meant to be community decision.

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    • I like Killian's idea

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    • Since affiliation is a heavily debated thing, I'm going to agree with the suggestion to remove the affiliation parameter and icons entirely.

      Also, I do not entirely understand the point of an affiliation parameter on Location infoboxes, so I think the affiliation parameter for locations should be removed too.

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    • I'm kind of in the middle of deleting all affliation parameters, but if the whole community agrees I'm not going to be opposed to it :) anyway, I completely agree with removing the affliation parameters in locations. Locations can't have an affliation because they are... you know, locations XD just because the people who live somewhere are evil doesn't mean the location itself is.

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    • It wouldn't be difficult to remove, I would just take out the parameters in the actual templates, remove the icons from the template, and delete the categories.

      I can bot-remove the code from the articles. Easy-peesy.

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    • Well everyone seems to be okay with it, thanks Killian and Utter. Kudos.

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    • Ya, that idea seems good.

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    • I agree with the removing as well. Do what you think is best. :)

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    • Keep the affiliations. Just put villain (formerly) then put hero underneath. Delete them from locations though.

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    • I can see the good of keeping the affiliations, but everything gets blurred when we try to judge (as the show audience) of who is a villain/former villain, a hero/former hero or neutral/formerly neutral. Now I see how confusing that can get because not the entire fanbase of OUAT views each character's affiliation the same way. Some people will still see Regina as a villain even though her current actions show she has reformed in many ways. Some people will perceive Rumplestiltskin/Mr. Gold as not a villain, but an anti-hero for his questionable actions. I think the spectrum is just too vast for us to factually categorize characters into affiliations when they are constantly changing sides or may change sides in the future.

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    • The only thing I would say is bring the affiliations back when the show ends.

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    • What about Anti-hero? it's not neutral. but it is both hero and villain.

      Mostly this for rumple because he is both (in the past and present).


      but for regina i think villain [formerly] Hero [currently]

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    • Kncooper wrote:
      What about Anti-hero? it's not neutral. but it is both hero and villain.

      Mostly this for rumple because he is both (in the past and present).

      Not exactly.... an anti-hero is just a character, who lacks conventional heroic attributes.

      Rumplestiltskin was a pure villain in the flashbacks, so this term does not apply. He loved his son and wanted to reunite with him, but he screwed everyone in the Enchanted Forest over to do it. Rumplestiltskin's moral compass is too flawed, for him to be considered an anti-hero. Then again, many consider Alex from A Clockwork Orange to be an anti-hero. Personally, I always viewed, Alex as a true villain.

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    • Some of our characters flip flop, and may do more in the future (Looking at you, Regina) 

      It seems best to just remove the parameters.

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    • I would say just to have Rumple and Regina as Neutral

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    • I don't think "neutral" is a good descriptor, though. Switzerland is neutral, they do nothing. Imo, Regina and Rumplestiltskin are not "neutral". They kill and manipulate to get what they want. Or, they actively do things for the greater good, depending on the point in time in the show. That's not what "netural" is :D

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      I don't think "neutral" is a good descriptor, though. Switzerland is neutral, they do nothing. Imo, Regina and Rumplestiltskin are not "neutral". They kill and manipulate to get what they want. Or, they actively do things for the greater good, depending on the point in time in the show. That's not what "netural" is :D

      I agree.... neutral is probably the worst term possible, to describe Regina and Gold.

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    • I wouldn't be opposed to noting both on the appropriate infoboxes, however. Hook, Regina, and Gold have all been villains and heroes. or we could do a "current" affiliation. 

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    • And just to throw it out there, the affiliation parameter was put on locations to show, basically, who owns it. Like, the Royal Castle is under Snowing's control, they are heroes, so we can consider it a "hero location". However, as so often happens, people want to fill out every parameter in the templates, even if it doesn't apply. This wiki has a serious problem with that.

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    • Lady Junky
      Lady Junky removed this reply because:
      f
      17:10, July 10, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • I agree with "remove the parameters". Affiliation questions are debatable on OUaT. Everyone has its own opinion about it, and so we should let the readers think what they want about that. If there is nothing about it, they could think what they want it won't be wrong ^^

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    • Utter solitude wrote:
      I wouldn't be opposed to noting both on the appropriate infoboxes, however. Hook, Regina, and Gold have all been villains and heroes. or we could do a "current" affiliation. 


      A current affiliation could still be bring up disagreements among this wiki's editors about what they perceive the character's affiliation is. I'm all for just getting rid of any and all affiliation parameters on all character/location templates.

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    • Whatever works, I'm just making suggestions :D

      But I mean, we're really only talking about two specific characters, Regina and Gold. Based on their most recent actions, Regina is a hero, Gold is a villain. That's not entirely debatable.

      But it's likely easier to take the paramaters out entirely.

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    • there might as well just be a new affiliation called Foggy ....


      that was a joke.

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    • Unagree p.s The White Rabbit for me is a hero.

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    • Brer Bear888 wrote: Unagree p.s The White Rabbit for me is a hero.

      How?

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    • Because he helped Alice, Cyrus, Will, etc. And the bad things he did were to save their relatives lifes that makes him a true hero.

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    • Brer Bear888 wrote: Unagree p.s The White Rabbit for me is a hero.

      "Disagree". Not "Unagree". :)

      What exactly are you disagreeing with? There's a lot being suggested here,

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    • Brer Bear888 wrote: Because he helped Alice, Cyrus, Will, etc. And the bad things he did were to save their relatives lifes that makes him a true hero.

      Um I remember a:

      "Great! Now we can have matching bloodstains on the carpet."

      But hey you're entitled to an opinion.

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    • The rabbit has a long history of assisting both heroes and villains. That's kind of textbook neutral XD

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    • I'm still sticking to removing the affiliation stuff, but I personally think that if the Rabbit is neutral for helping the Red Queen in order to save his family, then Mary Margaret is neutral because she helped Gold killing Cora to save her family, and Henry is neutral because he helped Pan to "save magic", and Charming is neutral because he helped Rumple put the True Love potion inside Maleficent to save his true love... XD

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    • Killian Jones wrote:
      then Mary Margaret is neutral because she helped Gold killing Cora to save her family, and Henry is neutral because he helped Pan to "save magic", and Charming is neutral because he helped Rumple put the True Love potion inside Maleficent to save his true love... XD

      No.... Mary Margaret deserves a medal for killing Cora. The only bad thing she did, was trick Regina into doing it. Henry and Prince Charming just prove, that many times heroes are incredibly stupid. Apparently, heroism and stupidity go hand-in-hand.

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    • ChocolatEyes613 wrote:

      Killian Jones wrote:
      then Mary Margaret is neutral because she helped Gold killing Cora to save her family, and Henry is neutral because he helped Pan to "save magic", and Charming is neutral because he helped Rumple put the True Love potion inside Maleficent to save his true love... XD

      No.... Mary Margaret deserves a medal for killing Cora. The only bad thing she did, was trick Regina into doing it. Henry and Prince Charming just prove, that many times heroes are incredibly stupid. Apparently, heroism and stupidity go hand-in-hand.

      Yet, they all helped villains because they had to save someone. :D

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    • Killian Jones wrote:
      I'm still sticking to removing the affiliation stuff, but I personally think that if the Rabbit is neutral for helping the Red Queen in order to save his family, then Mary Margaret is neutral because she helped Gold killing Cora to save her family, and Henry is neutral because he helped Pan to "save magic", and Charming is neutral because he helped Rumple put the True Love potion inside Maleficent to save his true love... XD


      I agree the Affiliation parameter should be removed. Affiliations are too debatable and it's really tiresome to keep updating it after one character flip flops from one affiliation to the other.

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    • Applegirl wrote: I agree the Affiliation parameter should be removed. Affiliations are too debatable and it's really tiresome to keep updating it after one character flip flops from one affiliation to the other.

      I agree.

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    • I agree as well after the whole Snow Queen fiasco so remove the affiliation since some characters never even had an affil but their brother did? No get rid of all of it.

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    • if for some reason we don't get rid of it, i think we should have a redeemed/reformed affiliation. But it looks like most people think we should just get rid of it, and i agree.

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    • Well, since the beginning of this thread, the main idea is to delete affiliation parameter. Killian suggested the idea to delete parameters and icons. The idea was suggested in July 2014.

      WinterWoodsGal, Bpste1, Gusey1397, Applegirl, Budloopy4, Oncelover13, utter solitude, Lady Junky, Nightlily, FanoftheMagicMirror = 10 persons clearly said they agreed

      Some persons like Andrew Robbins did not say it clearly so I did not count them.

      I think we can say there is a consensus on that decision :)

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    • I say no to putting Regina as a neutral. Her villainous side deserves to be acknowledged since she was season 1's big bad and a minor villain in s2. Also neutral indicates neither hero nor villain, not hero and villain which is why having it that way for those characters wouldn't be right.

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    • Although I do say Rumple should be neutral. Gold maybe should be a villain but I never really see Rumple as a villain. He just does what he needs to to benefit himself. I would say the same for Gold but I think s4 has officially made him a villain.

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    • We have a consensus on delete the affiliation parameter :) This kind of discussion are now over: people can say what they want about the affiliation of a character, we won't put it on the page. Like that everyone is free to think what they want :D

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    • Why is it being deleted? Personally I feel like having their alignment somewhere on the page is very informative. When I was still on Season 1, it helped me identify the characters better.

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    • Because we had a discussion about that on this thread, and tthe big majority of people who gave their opinion said "delete the parameter". You should read the whole thread :)

      But again, the alignment is not something sure. I mean we saw it with Ingrid and Regina: everyone has a different vision about the characters and everyone has its own vision about their alignment. This is my main argument for say yes to delete the parameter :) Again, you should read the thread ^^

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    • Bot of Solitude
      Bot of Solitude removed this reply because:
      20:53, December 26, 2017
      This reply has been removed
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