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  • Hello everyone! As you might or might not know, there has been a discussion going on about wether we should or should not merge some articles. A conclussion has been reached to keep CURSED counterparts separate, but that still leaves the Neal/Bae thing.

    Do you think Bae and Neal should be merged into ONE page or not?

    Please post a bolded "yes" or "no", and why you think merging or not merging would be a good idea. Thanks!


    • NOTE: this will also affect August Booth and Pinocchio's pages*
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    • No

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    • No, I think the time when he was a teen (Enchanted Forest -> London -> Neverland) should still be Bea and the rest Neal.

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    • *answer removed* I'll think about it later.

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    • Yes, same character and he was not cursed. He just changed his name so we should use one page. More easy for everything.

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    • Killian Jones wrote:
      Hello everyone! As you might or might not know, there has been a discussion going on about wether we should or should not merge some articles. A conclussion has been reached to keep CURSED counterparts separate, but that still leaves the Neal/Bae thing.

      Do you think Bae and Neal should be merged into ONE page or not?

      Please post a bolded "yes" or "no", and why you think merging or not merging would be a good idea. Thanks!


      • NOTE: this will also affect August Booth and Pinocchio's pages*

      NO!

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    • Personally, I think yes. As much as I voted to also keep cursed and pre-curse counterparts as one, I kind of get separating them because the curse had big effects on them, including physical changes, etc (for example, Gus becoming a human man).

      But with Bae, he wasn't altered in any way. All he changed was his name, and I don't think a simple name change consitutes becoming another counterpart and/or version of one's self.

      Just my opinion, though. I don't actually have a problem with them being separate.

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    • I'm going to say yes.

      While I think it makes sense to have separate counterpart pages for those affected by a curse (Regina's Curse and/or Zelena's Curse), I also think it'd be simpler to combine pages for Nealfire and Pinocchio/August because neither of them were ever cursed. The undoing of Pan's curse brought Neal back to the Enchanted Forest, yes, but because he wasn't ever affected by Regina's curse, that's all the undoing of the curse did for him. It did not revert him into a child because he was never touched by Regina's curse, so that aspect of her curse completely skipped him when it came to undoing Pan's curse.

      Also, the alias thing. Baelfire and Pinocchio both assumed false names as adults, but in essence, they are still the same people that came to the Land Without Magic as children. That's like Cora going to Wonderland and assuming the name "Queen of Hearts".

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    • yes, their always the same person

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    • No Bae is different from Neal even though they're the same person. Neal changed after Neverland and became a theif. Bae before neverland and abandonment, he was a sweet kid who was scared to burn a castle down.

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    • Alphanugget wrote:
      No Bae is different from Neal even though they're the same person. Neal changed after Neverland and became a theif. Bae before neverland and abandonment, he was a sweet kid who was scared to burn a castle down.


      But that's just a personality change, not a literal alteration of him as a being. Regina changed from a sweet young girl to a murderous tyrant, but Enchanted Forest Regina is still on one page.

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    • No

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    • Yes

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    • No, he didn't become Neal because of the curse, he became Neal because he wanted to.

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    • No.

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    • Yes, merging would make since, characters who weren't affected by the curse ( Emma, Henry, Hook) have all there information on one page/article. Neal and August were also not affected by Regina's curse and have lived "our" world for most of their lives. Also, I feel that Bae and PInnochio took the name Neal and August to fit into the world better, meaning they didn't change their personalities like the peole who were affected by the curse kinda did. So to me it makes sinceto merge, but thats just my opinion on the matter.

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    • yes

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    • Yes,Bae was in Neverland and then when he got older he went to New York and then changed his name becuase Baelfire is not a real world name.

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    • While I see the reasoning in merging them, I'm going to have to say no.

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    • Yes, Neal and Bae are the same person.

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    • It's so polarized. No clear majority. 

      Might even be a tie right now, if I counted correctly. 

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    • Yes. Both for Neal, and especially considering how August turned back into Pinocchio at some point.

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    • Yes.


      They're still the same person. Obviously there would have to be something saying that his name changed from Baelfire to Neal somewhere after his return from Neverland but..

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    • No

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    • I think that they should be merged. I honestly feel that anyone who did not have an alternate personality thanks to the curse should not be split. Like Regina, Regina should only have one page, at no point did she lose her memories or who she was. She is the same woman from the Enchanted Forest as she is in Storybrooke. Neal is still Baelfire, just grown up and under an assumed name to blend in. The same with August... he's still the puppet, August is just an alias.

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    • Theforgottenreflection wrote:
      I think that they should be merged. I honestly feel that anyone who did not have an alternate personality thanks to the curse should not be split. Like Regina, Regina should only have one page, at no point did she lose her memories or who she was. She is the same woman from the Enchanted Forest as she is in Storybrooke. Neal is still Baelfire, just grown up and under an assumed name to blend in. The same with August... he's still the puppet, August is just an alias.

      Regina retained her memories, but she still received cursed memories and a cursed life in Storybrooke in the same way Jefferson did. They didn't forget who they previously were, but they still count as cursed because they were given those cursed memories/lives.

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    • Something we should establish: I am assuming should they be merged the page will be called "Baelfire" and include the alias Neal Cassidy in the intro.

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    • Prince of Hearts wrote:
      Something we should establish: I am assuming should they be merged the page will be called "Baelfire" and include the alias Neal Cassidy in the intro.

      We haven't reached a decision on the page name yet. Some suggestions were to use both names, like "Baelfire/Neal Cassidy" or using the most recent name he's been credited as on the press release. 

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    • "Baelfire/Neal Cassidy" definitely should not happen. And using the most recent name, Neal Cassidy, doesn't make much sense to me ether. It unravels the reason for merging the pages, that he was born Baelfire and still is Baelfire.

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    • yes

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    • I see the reasons to merge, but how would that practically work? When we are writing summaries for an episode we call him Neal or Baelfire? I think having separate pages is neater, even though it might not be exactly the best thing.

      Also, if we merge, the page should indeed be named Baelfire/Neal Cassidy. We can't "choose" one over the other. They are both credited in press releases (just like Grendel/Handsome Man and Mother/Woman).

      The most precise way is merging (to have a standard "got-cursed-has-two-pages-otherwise-does-not"). I'm for yes, but I don't think it is wrong if we keep them separate.

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    • Yes. They're the same person, not a counterpart

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    • Sunshine4321 wrote:
      Alphanugget wrote:
      No Bae is different from Neal even though they're the same person. Neal changed after Neverland and became a theif. Bae before neverland and abandonment, he was a sweet kid who was scared to burn a castle down.

      But that's just a personality change, not a literal alteration of him as a being. Regina changed from a sweet young girl to a murderous tyrant, but Enchanted Forest Regina is still on one page.

      He changed his identity completely.

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    • Yes

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    • Yes, because Pinocchio and Nealfire remember their time back in the Enchanted Forest and were not affected by the curse when it first happened.

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    • No

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    • No, but possibly move his adult EF events to the Neal page.

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    • No

      In taking on new names as adults, Neal and August separated themselves from the EF lives in a way extremely similar to the Dark Curse's.

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    • JesseJane wrote:
      No

      In taking on new names as adults, Neal and August separated themselves from the EF lives in a way extremely similar to the Dark Curse's.

      Hey, look, something you and I agree on.

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    • Yes.

      Bae and Neal are the same person just going by different aliases at different points in his life.

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    • Yes. Like people say, they are the same person!

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    • Yes, I definitley think you should keep them on the same page. 

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    • No.

      They should not be merged, as they assumed a false identity with the name change to better fit in to this world. I'm sure if you asked them where they were from, they wouldn't say "From a magical world with dragons and fairies and evil queens, oh my." They would have a fake story just like the cursed counterparts, the only differences being they can age, they can go anywhere they want, they created their own "curse", and they can remember their lives before assuming a new identity. In fact the only difference between Regina, August, and Neil is Regina stopped aging during the curse, besides that she's the same: she can go anywhere (even though she only left Storybrooke like once or twice), she remembers her old identity, and she decided the terms of her new identity. The fact that they credit MRJ as Bae/Neil should further point to how they are using them as psudo-counterparts by the way.

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    • Damn, not an easy question... I wanted to say "Yes, of course !" since it's the same person. But then, I think it's better to differentiate the two sides of him as it's done for the other characters. Even if Neal is not as clearly a counterpart of Bae as other characters in the show, he's still different from Emma or Henry. So I would say No, don't merge the page.

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    • No. They might be the same character, but they lived in different times.

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    • GleidsonMK wrote:
      No. They might be the same character, but they lived in different times.

      ... Different times? If we do like you say, Young Snow lives in a different time from Adult Snow :/ So we should create another page? :S

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    • Alphanugget wrote:
      Sunshine4321 wrote:
      Alphanugget wrote:
      No Bae is different from Neal even though they're the same person. Neal changed after Neverland and became a theif. Bae before neverland and abandonment, he was a sweet kid who was scared to burn a castle down.

      But that's just a personality change, not a literal alteration of him as a being. Regina changed from a sweet young girl to a murderous tyrant, but Enchanted Forest Regina is still on one page.
      He changed his identity completely.

      But that doesn't mean he changed in a way similar to how those affected by the curse changed. He adopted a false identity, yes, in a way totaly different to the new identities obtained by those in the Dark Curse (where there were real, physical changes). Perhaps there was more to it, but that's just speculation as of now.

      But like I say, just my opinion, as you have yours. If the consensus becomes to keep them separate, I won't object.

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    • No do not merge them.

      Reason is that Baelfire, imho, refers to the lad that grew up in the EF, Landed for a short time in Victorian England, and ultmately spent many years in NL (never aging).

      Given His 'apparant' age relative to Emma, I would guess he did not appear in NYC until after the curse was cast, and I am assuming that he assumed his identity when he arrived.

      I guess the summary is that Baelfire is his EF/NL identity, while Neal is his LWM identity, and they ARE different identities.

      The same would also hold true for August/Pinnochio.

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    • Yes, Neal may have legally changed his name and got himself a fake birthday, but  unlike most of the others he didn't get to escape his former life by means of the curse, He had to do that all by himself instead.  

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    • Ruby ridinghood wrote: Yes, Neal may have legally changed his name and got himself a fake birthday, but  unlike most of the others he didn't get to escape his former life by means of the curse, He had to do that all by himself instead.  

      I don't understand why it has to be just like the Curse to justify split pages. We could go with "the Curse, or adopting a new, different identity in the new world" and it makes sense.

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    • Utter solitude wrote: I don't understand why it has to be just like the Curse to justify split pages. We could go with "the Curse, or adopting a new, different identity in the new world" and it makes sense.

      I completely agree.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:

      Ruby ridinghood wrote: Yes, Neal may have legally changed his name and got himself a fake birthday, but  unlike most of the others he didn't get to escape his former life by means of the curse, He had to do that all by himself instead.  

      I don't understand why it has to be just like the Curse to justify split pages. We could go with "the Curse, or adopting a new, different identity in the new world" and it makes sense.

      What I meant was that the curse gave everyone new names and personalities, but Bealfire didn't have anyone give her a new name, birthday or anything. He just reinvented himself as Neal like Pinnchio did as August. I think Neal/Bealfire & August/Pinnchio should be merged because the curse didn't do anything to them, they just changed themselves.

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    • Ruby ridinghood wrote:

      Utter solitude wrote:

      Ruby ridinghood wrote: Yes, Neal may have legally changed his name and got himself a fake birthday, but  unlike most of the others he didn't get to escape his former life by means of the curse, He had to do that all by himself instead.  

      I don't understand why it has to be just like the Curse to justify split pages. We could go with "the Curse, or adopting a new, different identity in the new world" and it makes sense.

      What I meant was that the curse gave everyone new names and personalities, but Bealfire didn't have anyone give her a new name, birthday or anything. He just reinvented himself as Neal like Pinnchio did as August. I think Neal/Bealfire & August/Pinnchio should be merged because the curse didn't do anything to them, they just changed themselves.

      But, just like Utter said, why do they have to be cursed to have split pages? That isn't the only way one can change identity.

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    • The thing with Pinnchio is that he was Pinnichio then he was August then Pinnichio again, with the new curse he could still be Pinnichio got turned in August or even a flying monkey, but it's really too confussing to keep up with using two different pages. 

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    • No, they are two different points in time.

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    • No

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    • Lady Junky wrote:
      GleidsonMK wrote:
      No. They might be the same character, but they lived in different times.
      ... Different times? If we do like you say, Young Snow lives in a different time from Adult Snow :/ So we should create another page? :S

      Bae lived on Fairytale Tale Land and in the Never Land for long years, and this were long years ago.

      Neal lives in the present, with a new name and a totally diferent life.

      These two stories aren't connected in any point, for what I remember, like Snow's did. If there were the point and the explanation of how Bae turned to Neal and changed his name to live in New York, then the pages should be merged, because there would be a connection between them that turned them in the same.

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    • nope

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    • I suggest an idea to settle both yes and no parties.

      We can create a page with the name Baefire / Neal Cassidy, and use tabview to link up both Baefire and Neal Cassidy's articles. As a result, we don't need to merge or delete any articles, but meanwhile the information will be in their own tab under one page. 

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    • At this point I just think it is too divisive to take any action.

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    • Prince of Hearts wrote:
      At this point I just think it is too divisive to take any action.

      What if someone compiled the basic arguments for each side and posted them to see if they change anyone's mind?

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    • Yes. I also think we should merge the, "After Broken Curse" and "During New Curse" on to their Enchanted Forest counterparts as they know who they are during those times. That has bugged me for a while and I am glad it is being brought up now.

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    • Merboy1000 wrote:
      Yes. I also think we should merge the, "After Broken Curse" and "During New Curse" on to their Enchanted Forest counterparts as they know who they are during those times. That has bugged me for a while and I am glad it is being brought up now.


      No.You cant put peoples time in Storybrooke to their Enchanted Forest selfs!

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    • SmallvilleFanatic wrote:
      Merboy1000 wrote:
      Yes. I also think we should merge the, "After Broken Curse" and "During New Curse" on to their Enchanted Forest counterparts as they know who they are during those times. That has bugged me for a while and I am glad it is being brought up now.

      No.You cant put peoples time in Storybrooke to their Enchanted Forest selfs!

      Sorry. I just thought it would be a good idea. I guess not.

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    • Merboy1000 wrote:

      SmallvilleFanatic wrote:
      Merboy1000 wrote:
      Yes. I also think we should merge the, "After Broken Curse" and "During New Curse" on to their Enchanted Forest counterparts as they know who they are during those times. That has bugged me for a while and I am glad it is being brought up now.

      No.You cant put peoples time in Storybrooke to their Enchanted Forest selfs!
      Sorry. I just thought it would be a good idea. I guess not.

      Sorry I didnt mean to be mean i was just saying that

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    • SmallvilleFanatic wrote:


      Merboy1000 wrote:

      SmallvilleFanatic wrote:
      Merboy1000 wrote:
      Yes. I also think we should merge the, "After Broken Curse" and "During New Curse" on to their Enchanted Forest counterparts as they know who they are during those times. That has bugged me for a while and I am glad it is being brought up now.

      No.You cant put peoples time in Storybrooke to their Enchanted Forest selfs!
      Sorry. I just thought it would be a good idea. I guess not.
      Sorry I didnt mean to be mean i was just saying that

      No that's okay! I wasn't taking it as mean. :)

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    • Merboy1000 wrote:
      Yes. I also think we should merge the, "After Broken Curse" and "During New Curse" on to their Enchanted Forest counterparts as they know who they are during those times. That has bugged me for a while and I am glad it is being brought up now.

      I like that idea.

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    • Ruby ridinghood wrote:
      Merboy1000 wrote:
      Yes. I also think we should merge the, "After Broken Curse" and "During New Curse" on to their Enchanted Forest counterparts as they know who they are during those times. That has bugged me for a while and I am glad it is being brought up now.
      I like that idea.

      Perhaps we could open another discussion specifically about this...? :o

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    • No that really should not happening. They are aware of both identities after that curse, but they still live their lives as their Storybrooke selves.

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    • Arctucrus wrote:
      Ruby ridinghood wrote:
      Merboy1000 wrote:
      Yes. I also think we should merge the, "After Broken Curse" and "During New Curse" on to their Enchanted Forest counterparts as they know who they are during those times. That has bugged me for a while and I am glad it is being brought up now.
      I like that idea.
      Perhaps we could open another discussion specifically about this...? :o

      I think we should. How about it?

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    • Merboy1000 wrote:
      Arctucrus wrote:
      Ruby ridinghood wrote:
      Merboy1000 wrote:
      Yes. I also think we should merge the, "After Broken Curse" and "During New Curse" on to their Enchanted Forest counterparts as they know who they are during those times. That has bugged me for a while and I am glad it is being brought up now.
      I like that idea.
      Perhaps we could open another discussion specifically about this...? :o
      I think we should. How about it?

      I have started this discussion. Please come there so I can hear your thoughts.

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    • The discussion is here

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    • YES

      What's the point of rules if you don't follow them?  According to the rules, separate pages are only for cursed people.  If Neal and Bae are put on separate pages, then just make sure you change the guidelines to "decisions will be made on a case by case basis" then all if well.

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    • Separate pages are not "only" for Cursed people. I don't know who wrote the policy like that, but that's not what it is and I have corrected it.

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    • August and Pinocchio and Neal and Baelfire are separate in an extremely similar way as the separation of Cursed characters like Snow White or Jiminy Cricket. They both rejected their former selves and names in the new world to take on new lives.

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    • Malcolm also wasn't cursed, and yet he got an own page as Peter Pan. Should those pages merge too? No, they are entirely seperate personalities to say so. For example Pinocchio only exist as a young boy, he never really grew up as Pinocchio. He created August himself. The same actually goes for Neal/Bea. I still think they should be seperate. The only thing I am doubting is whether to put the lost year of Nealfire on the Bealfire page or on the Neal page.

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    • DarKingdomHearts wrote:
      Malcolm also wasn't cursed, and yet he got an own page as Peter Pan. Should those pages merge too? No, they are entirely seperate personalities to say so. For example Pinocchio only exist as a young boy, he never really grew up as Pinocchio. He created August himself. The same actually goes for Neal/Bea. I still think they should be seperate. The only thing I am doubting is whether to put the lost year of Nealfire on the Bealfire page or on the Neal page.

      If we go by personalities, do we need separate pages for Good young Regina and Evil old Regina, as those are entire separate personalities, despite being the same person.

      Most likely, we'll never come up with an all-encompassing set of rules that will satisfy every case. 

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    • Stonicus wrote:

      Most likely, we'll never come up with an all-encompassing set of rules that will satisfy every case. 

      This is exactly correct XD There will always be exceptions. But that's why we discuss these things to find the best solution for every case.

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    • Utter solitude wrote:

      Stonicus wrote:

      Most likely, we'll never come up with an all-encompassing set of rules that will satisfy every case. 

      This is exactly correct XD There will always be exceptions. But that's why we discuss these things to find the best solution for every case.

      The fact that we don't have a hard and fast rule is what's making this so complicated though, lol.

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    • What we are trying to say is because the show is constantly changing there is no way to make a definitive rule.

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    • This is a hard one.  After reading everyone's comments, I can see both points.  I think it would be fine to merge it.  We already have tabs that say Before, During, and After the Curse.  His Before and During would be Baelfire with a little Neal and his after would be Neal.  He is the same person despite the fact that he changed over time.  Emma changed over time as well but she is still one entity.  Its a tough one, for sure. 

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    • Yes. Explanation a few replies below.

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    • No

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    • Redwall64 wrote: Yes. Decided not to read comments so I wouldn't be influenced as well bec. I wanna stick with this answer. :P

      .....really?

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    • Utter solitude wrote:

      Redwall64 wrote: Yes. Decided not to read comments so I wouldn't be influenced as well bec. I wanna stick with this answer. :P

      .....really?

      So much for educated discussion on this topic, right Utter? lol

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:

      So much for educated discussion on this topic, right Utter? lol

      Looks like the art of debate is dying, Al. XD

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    • OHHH! An argument! Can I join in?

      Wait...both sides are equally merited....

      I say YES. Because I think Bae and Neal Cassidy are the same and though I totally get the Peter Pan/Malcolm argument, I think Bae and Neal should stay on one page. I hate it if people get spoiled to the reveal, but that's the chance you take when you read a spoiler heavy site like a wiki. Is there possibly a way to keep both with the alter identity as a hidden spoiler on each page? That would probably be way too much work though.

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    • Saintfighteraqua wrote:
      OHHH! An argument! Can I join in?

      Wait...both sides are equally merited....

      I say YES. Because I think Bae and Neal Cassidy are the same and though I totally get the Peter Pan/Malcolm argument, I think Bae and Neal should stay on one page. I hate it if people get spoiled to the reveal, but that's the chance you take when you read a spoiler heavy site like a wiki. Is there possibly a way to keep both with the alter identity as a hidden spoiler on each page? That would probably be way too much work though.

      Right they are the same, but Mary Margaret and Snow are also the same, especially after the curse was broken at the end of season 1. I just don't get why so many people think that all other characters should have two pages but Bae and Neal shouldn't. I think if we're leaving all other aliases as seperate, they the false identities people choose to assume should also be seperate. And also, do people not see the link to the counterpart in the infobox? I don't understand how so many people are so confused by this. Maybe the real discussion here should be about puting the link to the counterpart/alternate identity somewhere where everyone can easily find it.

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    • It's also in the template at the top of the page.

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    • =) While I said I wasn't going to/didn't read comments, I still ended up scanning and reading some anyway before I commented; I didn't really mean I "decided not to read so as not to be influenced", I suppose that was the wrong choice of words and didn't think people would actually care; I mostly meant to (and failed to) say the comments would not have influenced my choice even if I read, anyway. Because I have, for as long as I've been reading on this wiki, always thought their pages should be merged and still think no comment would be able to sway me from that perception. It's a personal preference to want to avoid online arguments that might come off from me reacting to other comments, and I suppose my explanation is warranted, so here is mine:

      I think Bae and Neal, and August and Pinnochio, should be merged, because, to me, they never seemed like different people because they, like Emma, were never technically affected by Regina's curse the same way as the others, the curse being the main reason the other pages were separated to begin with. For the others, their lives and memories were almost completely changed, while Bae and Pinnochio seemed to only change their names, and the lives they lead and paths they took afterwards were by choice, not forced upon them unknowingly by the curse.

      While this is my opinion, I'm also fine with it being kept the way it is (separate).

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    • CoolDudeAl wrote:
      Saintfighteraqua wrote:
      OHHH! An argument! Can I join in?

      Wait...both sides are equally merited....

      I say YES. Because I think Bae and Neal Cassidy are the same and though I totally get the Peter Pan/Malcolm argument, I think Bae and Neal should stay on one page. I hate it if people get spoiled to the reveal, but that's the chance you take when you read a spoiler heavy site like a wiki. Is there possibly a way to keep both with the alter identity as a hidden spoiler on each page? That would probably be way too much work though.

      Right they are the same, but Mary Margaret and Snow are also the same, especially after the curse was broken at the end of season 1. I just don't get why so many people think that all other characters should have two pages but Bae and Neal shouldn't. I think if we're leaving all other aliases as seperate, they the false identities people choose to assume should also be seperate. And also, do people not see the link to the counterpart in the infobox? I don't understand how so many people are so confused by this. Maybe the real discussion here should be about puting the link to the counterpart/alternate identity somewhere where everyone can easily find it.

      I don't think anyone should have more than one page.

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    • I just relized why we cant because Bae is still alive while Neal is Dead.Well actually Bae is the same person as Neal so basically there both Dead.Nevermind

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    • A Spy in the Mirror
        Preparing Editor Spell
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